XV230 - Information
 

I also lost my son on XV230.
Since the event there has been as far as I am concerned a serious lack of information from the MoD. Apart from a visit at 23.00 on the 02/09/2066 to inform me of the accident and two letters of condolance from the Commanding Officer and Squadron Commander I have heard nothing. My wife and I found out about the memorial service from someone at Kinloss and phoned to ask for an invitation to attend. Now we find that the only way to obtain any information is to be alerted via this web site to newspaper reports.

Why is it neccesary to provide the report to the legal people months before those who should have the results get to see a sanitised(?) version. Do they think we cannot accept the unadulterated truth?

I notice that the petition by Tapper's Dad seems to have fallen by the wayside, please sign if you haven't already. Both my wife and I are now 75, there is a good chance we may not be around to know the result

Tappers Dad
The delay will be due to that infamous word - "litigation"
The BOI report, which, I am sure, is in perfectly man-readable English, will have to be "published" in a manner that the MOD requires and the public understands:hmm:

Papa Whiskey Alpha
Yes you are right we have had little direct contact with the RAF and nothing at all from the MOD.
Having said that we had two VO's ring us, a letter and a senoir officer contact us just before the Panorama programme came out.

Ah the power of the media !!!!

anr
 

I know it’s a different Mk of aircraft, but this may be of interest, given it is a safety issue.





DESIGN, MANUFACTURE & SUPPLY OF ACTIVE NOISE HEADSET INTERFACE BOXES AND CONNECTING LEADS

Summary of Requirements:
The Nimrod IPT has a requirement for the Design, Manufacture and Supply of a replacement Active Noise Reduction (ANR) Headset Interface Box and its Connecting Leads, for use on the Mission System of the Nimrod R Mk1. The box is to be designed to the same size restraints as the existing Headset Interface Box, but is to include provision for the ANR Power Supply to be feed through the box by the addition of extra connectors. The replacement box is required to be new build.

Scaremongering - whats it worth?
 

As a current MR2 man who knew all the crew on 230 (some for 25 years), I have to wonder what this thread is acheiving.

from my family's point of view, they find this thread, and the Panorama episode - which I have only just viewed, being on det - quite distressing, and regardless of what I tell them, they will not be reassured while such scaremongering continues.

I may be a naive old fool but I climb on board every day without any fear of a one in a million tech defect causing my wife to claim on the insurance.

The Nimrod is far from the only aircraft type to break in a sudden and catastrophic fashion. Commercial types that fly hundreds of thousands of passengers every day do it too, TWA800 for example.

Whilst I do hope that the BOI can identify a cause and stop it happening again, as they did following XW666's accident, if they cannot then I feel it is time to draw a line under the whole affair, and let the guys and girls who are still flying them now to get on with their jobs without any more undue stress being placed on their families and friends.

I have the utmost respect for everyone who was on crew 3, but the crews that remain must be allowed to get on with their work without all this added pressure.

RIP CXX/3

Here, here Camelspyder.

Spot on Camelspyder. :D

I have thought long and hard about posting this.
I cannot agree more with Camelspyder. I watched the Panorama program via the BBC website, and I feel it exploited the families to satisfy the undying need of journalists and their sensationalist scoop vendetta, and for what?
Mrs Q
I thought you were very strong and brave and rightly proud of Q, it brought back memories of better times and lots of Bacardi Breezers. You made this old bugger cry.
TD
I know you want the answers to why you and your family have paid this heavy price, the career Ben chose and loved was not without risk. Military flying is a risky business and accidents do happen, sometimes the cause is never known, what if you never knew why? My friends, colleagues and dear mates at ISK have been heavily wounded, this wound will heal very slowly given their and their families strengths as will yours. Some of the casualties of this tragic event were not on XV230 and are still suffering with no-one to turn to but their mates. Each dig into this wound by journalists, so-called experts and politicians tears the very scab off the wound and it starts the whole healing process once more.
To all on this thread spare a thought for those that are in harms way and their families waiting at home and what your impassioned, point scoring and un-informed posts may cause them to go through. I have faith in the professional approach of the RAF members of the BOI and always have had. The use of this thread to bash the MRA4 and the people working on it is just pathetic. I am no longer with the RAF, but I am in the process of preparing my young crew to deploy to the Middle East in an aircraft of the same vintage conducting the same roles as the MR2, some for the first time. I will be operating alongside our allies including American MPA operators. Can a drone complete the role, no they cannot, despite the many varied types, they have many strengths and many weaknesses. As with Camelspyder I climb aboard and take the risks I volunteered for to make a difference to peoples’ lives. My thoughts are often on 2nd Sept, and not for the first time, sometimes when I am flying, sometimes in the quiet down time.
If you have a problem with what I have said please PM me and we will discuss off thread. To my brothers and sisters in arms mines a Guinness in this life or the next, rest easy.
Charlie sends

:uhoh: Still hurts. Well said Charlie Luncher and Camelspyyder.

RIP CXX/3

camelspyyder

"from my family's point of view, they find this thread, and the Panorama episode - which I have only just viewed, being on det - quite distressing, and regardless of what I tell them, they will not be reassured while such scaremongering continues".

Scaremongering ??? I don't think the Panorama programme said anything that wasn't the truth. If this scares people I am not surprised but it's the truth.

"The Nimrod is far from the only aircraft type to break in a sudden and catastrophic fashion. Commercial types that fly hundreds of thousands of passengers every day do it too, TWA800 for example".

This is true did you read the NTSB findings into the TW A800 crash ??
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2006/060629.htm

A flawed design and airworthiness certification philosophy that fuel tank explosions could be prevented solely by eliminating all likely ignition sources;

The certification of the Boeing 747 design that had heat sources located beneath the center wing tank with no means to reduce the heat transferred into the fuel tank, and no protection against the flammability of vapors that accumulated in the tank.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?


"Whilst I do hope that the BOI can identify a cause and stop it happening again, as they did following XW666's accident, if they cannot then I feel it is time to draw a line under the whole affair, and let the guys and girls who are still flying them now to get on with their jobs without any more undue stress being placed on their families and friends".

If they cannot then I feel it's time to draw a line under the whole affair. Oh thats what it was an affair, not a tragedy that has left 18 children fatherless,not a tragedy that has left 14 wives/girlfriends and parents heartbroken.
It was just an affair and lets draw a line under it :mad:

Perhaps those fighting for justice in the Chinook and Hercules threads should "draw a line under the whole affair" as well eh??

All accidents have a cause the main cause of this one was a fuel leak.
In the 6 months leading up to the accident 52 leaks were reported. In a 5 month period since 25 leaks reported. Doesn't that mean the a/c is safer now than before the crash ?
I would have thought that fact alone would give some families reassurance that things are getting better.
I also understand times between maintainence have been reduced and AAR kept to a minimum. all reassuring stuff.

Get your head out of the sand and smell the aviation fuel, this AFFAIR will NOT have a line drawn under it until after the Inquest in two or three years time.
At the inquest they will look into why there were 52 leaks in the 6 months prior to the tragedy, they will look into maintainence, Safety cases, other incidents. They will look at the reccommendations following the incident on XV227 22nd Nov 2004 to see if they were carried out.

RECOMMENDATIONS
39. It is recommended that:
a. A maintenance policy is investigated for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
b. A lifing policy is introduced for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
c. The ruptured duct is with replaced with new manufacture items on a fleet-wide basis as soon as possible.
d. A hot air leak warning system is introduced for the ruptured duct and cross-air bleed ducts.
e. The extent of the hot air leak warning system is reviewed to ensure that all possible duct failures are covered.
f. This incident is highlighted as a training point for WSOp(E).
g. The FRCs regarding SCP malfunctions are amended to reflect the information in the aircrew manuals.

If anyone knows if all/some of these recommendations were carried out please post it on here ,this is the Nimrod Information thread after all.

Only when the families of the dead know ALL the facts only then can a line be drawn.

Car crashes happen everyday it does worry my family I drive everyday.
And yes aircraft crash, that doesn't stop millions of people flying on them.

As Charlie Luncher says "Military flying is a risky business and accidents do happen". Thats reassuring Charlie isn't it.

Exercising my right to an opinion - santiago15, FATTER GATOR, Charlie Luncher, Strato Q, Just This Once, 30mRad, camelspyyder, well said by all, I agree.

Military life (flying or not) is inherently dangerous, that's partly why some of us do it. I knew all on 230. RIP CXX/3, it still hurts.

TD,
I so very much agree with every word you say 100%.

Clearly there are two schools of thought;
1. We should all keep quiet and say nothing, or
2. Voice concerns and opinions etc.

For fear of having my head shot off again, I'll refrain from further comment other than to say I'm with option 2 and still very much with you TD.

Keep up the great work. Kind regards
TSM

TSM You wonder why...
 

"...ha ha, what an idiot!!"
TSM

"...I can't stop laughing at you Short Fattie thing, HO HO, HA HA..."

If you didn't come out with sh1t like that, maybe you wouldn't need to fear getting your "...head shot off again..."

I'm with camelspyder and charlieluncher on this one. There are clearly two camps - those who believe there is some great conspiracy and cover-up and those who are trying to get on and do their best in an often imperfect system, whilst waiting for the BOI report. Those at the coal face with experience understand some of the pressures that mean we can't always have things exactly as we want, nor limitless funding. I expect to be slagged off for this, but I have made my decision - I'm not going to read this thread anymore as I think it is incapable of resolution to anyones satisfaction.

Apology to TD and others
 

Just reread what I posted yesterday and I can see that it could offend some.

I certainly do not think the families should let up in their search for the truth - if it ever can be determined.

I do believe, however, that a line should be drawn under this thread. It has been dominated by bitching, one-upmanship and often ill-informed speculation since it started. None of these things are helpful to either the families of the lost, or those that remain.

Until the FACTS are presented, I (and I only speak for myself on this one)will be happy to keep on flying in the Nimrod, and unless those facts damn the heap to hell, and thence the scrappers, I will continue to do so for some time to come.

RIP CXX/3

Wigan Warrior,

TSM made his comments in light of what I wrote on here regarding Airline safety. It was in responce to the comments made to me by the Short Fat one.

Sadly it is now yourself who is looking somewhat silly by dragging up his comments once again! What is your point? TSM has apologised for the tone of his comments and for taking the mickey, but NOT for the accuarcy or content, which is correct as far as airline safety is concerned. I will not venture into the argument on here either, simply because there are some who feel that my experience as an airline pilot is not worth a jot, but hey, whatever, I can live with that. If you chaps feel that you know better, then I am happy with also.

Clearly WW you are in the gang who feel that personal abuse is the way to go, 'If you didn't come out with sh1t like that' and I am not going to lower myself to your standards and argue with you. Try reasoning next time, or trying understanding the frustration that others feel by this sad, sorry and appalling situation.

TD, I also agree entirely with your comments. You must keep searching and keep asking those difficult questions and I am certain that you will find the answers you seek one day very soon I hope.

The Winco

This isn’t an easy one, but if even half the statements here, and on other threads, are remotely true, it certainly looks like the MoD have difficult questions to answer.

I believe in TD’s right to search for the truth. He is using a forum where he is probably entitled to believe he can expect support, given he gets little or none from MoD. I also believe the MoD actually rely on bereaved families wanting to forget and move on.

As such, letting this go would be playing into the MoD’s hands. I am no expert, and do not wish to pre-judge the BOI or coroner, but on the face of it this accident was avoidable. It does not seem to have been an unavoidable accident in the sense a bird strike would be. We should avoid the personal conflicts we see here, but the basic issues should be of concern to everyone. I applaud the “can do” attitude of those who fly. I accept the honesty of those who admit they “can’t do”. But I abhor those who can and should, but don’t.

Instead of studying this in isolation, perhaps we should take a wider look, and assess whether other accidents were avoidable, and if there were common factors. Not detailed technical issues like fuel leaks, but whether or not people in authority were forewarned, or shortcuts were taken to save pennies, or funding withheld. The stovepiping we hear of in the MoD has the effect of reducing the number of people who see the big picture on, for example, aircraft safety. It makes it easier to ignore this bigger picture, allowing the MoD to look plausible when they claim any given accident was “isolated”.

Stick with it TD.

TD it is as well to remember that the Military is a very conservative organisation. Officers don't get promoted by being controversial or making a noise. I am not suggesting that is what is going on here, but I do believe the majority are uncomfortable with involving press and media in general. I urge you to continue. This thread may have run run it's course for now. But you still have a lot of support for your cause.

If I was still serving, I would absolutely reject the argument that the level of risk being asked of crews is acceptable when very easy safety solutions are on the table. lack of money is a pathetic reason to bury heads in sands. Money is always available to those who know how to ask for it and £500m is already being spent on aircraft self-protection (post XV179).

Good luck with your cause.

camelspyyder,
And that's the way it should be. But it can only be so if everyone understands and discharges their responsibilities.

While some may not understand the journey TD is taking, one has to respect that grief takes many forms. I contribute to this thread not to defend or demand but to explain.

For those who continue to take risks on our behalf, you have my respect, for those who wait for answers, you have my best wishes.

sw

25 Jun 2007 : Column 128W

Nimrod Aircraft

Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what investigation was undertaken into the ruptured super-heated air pipe on Nimrod XV227 in November 2004; what conclusions were reached; and what steps have been taken in response. [142810]

Mr. Ingram: During a post flight check on Nimrod XV227 on 22 November 2004, it was discovered that a portion of Supplementary Cooling Pack ducting had failed. A unit inquiry was held which concluded that it was caused by pitting and cracking corrosion leading to failure. The unit inquiry made the following recommendations and the table identifies actions taken in response.

Recommendation
The ruptured duct is replaced with new manufactured items on a fleet-wide basis as soon as possible.
Action Taken
Recommendation closed. All such ducts fitted to in-service aircraft have been replaced with newly manufactured items.

Recommendation
A lifting policy is introduced for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
Action Taken
See comments on maintenance policy recommendation. Action ongoing.

Recommendation
A maintenance policy should be instigated for the ruptured duct and all similar ducts.
Action Taken
A study into the need for a preventative maintenance/lifing policy for this and similar ducts has been concluded by the Designer (BAE Systems). Their report, which is due to be issued imminently, is based on the results of a detailed analysis of a sample of ducts taken from a number of MR2 aircraft. This analysis has taken time to complete, but the report is expected to recommend that a lifting policy be introduced. Ducts due for replacement would be replaced during scheduled maintenance activities and it is anticipated that such a duct replacement programme would be in place by December 2007. Action ongoing.

Recommendation
The extent of the hot air leak warning system is reviewed to ensure that all possible duct failures are covered.
Action Taken
Recommendation closed. A review of the aircraft warning systems revealed that the affected Supplementary Cooling Pack Duct was the only duct whose failure would not have been detected.

Recommendation
A hot air leak warning system is introduced for the ruptured duct and cross-air bleed ducts.
Action Taken
Recommendation rejected. The duct failure was an isolated incident and was in the only part of the system where a leak would not have been detected. All of these ducts have been replaced with newly manufactured items that, based upon the previous 25 fault-free years that the original duct had been fitted, are expected to last well beyond the planned MR2 Out of Service Date (early part of the next decade). Moreover, fitting a discrete hot air leak warning system would be a complex modification that would have to be embodied across the fleet during its maintenance cycle and therefore take several years to embody. Considering the Out of Service Date of the Nimrod MR2, the fitting of such a system was not considered to be practicable. Action closed.

Recommendation
This incident is highlighted as a training point for Air Engineers.
Action Taken
The incident was immediately publicised through the Air Engineer command chain at RAF Kinloss. Action closed.

Recommendation
The Aircrew Flight Reference Cards (FRC) regarding Supplementary Cooling Pack malfunctions are amended to reflect the information in the aircrew manuals.
Action Taken
Amendments were made to Aircrew Flight Reference Cards and Aircrew Manuals to reflect the incident. Action closed.