‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told
Telegraph 31 May 2023:
‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told The RAF instructed staff to stop choosing “useless white male pilots” for training courses in a leaked email seen by The Telegraph. In an email dated Jan 19, 2021, Squadron Leader Andrew Harwin, who worked in the Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre, sent an email to his colleagues, he discussed the boarding process where candidates are chosen to pursue certain training courses, he wrote: “I noted that the boards have recently been predominantly white male heavy. “If we don’t have enough BAME and female to board then we need to make the decision to pause boarding and seek more BAME and female from the RAF. “I don’t really need to see loads of useless white male pilots, let’s get as focused as possible, I am more than happy to reduce boarding if needed to have a balanced BAME/female/male board.” |
OASC out to lunch?
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https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4f60b6a83.jpeg
A bunch of ‘useless white male pilots’ waiting to scramble against the Luftwaffe, circa 1940…. |
That's his career dead in the water now that Wigston isn't providing top cover.
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Hey....all ya'll don't leap to conclusions here....please!
Unless and until you know what the Squadron Leader defined as "useless white male pilots" is defined as being.....the Squadron Leader might be onto something. First we (am I allowed to use such a pronun to refer to the collective meaning every person) must first define the terms "Male" which is going to be a challenge itself....as few of us are Biologists. Then we have to deal with the notion of "White" and whether that is a distinct narrative as some Hispanics are considered to be "White" and that ignores what degree of "White" determines if one. is "White" or not. Now as to the "useless" part of the category being cited.......I suppose asking the Other Ranks for an opinion might be fraught with peril as to the outcome of that survey. So don't be quick to anger over such a comment as figuring out exactly what was meant might take some time if done fairly and appropriately. I suppose a formal Board of Inquiry, complete with Pitchers of Water and pristine Glasses waiting use might be in order. Put the Squadron Leader under Oath and ask for clarification.....and determine if the Squadron Leader has somehow found the Squadron Leader's own inclusion in the "useless" group .:oh: |
Once these cats get out of the bag, they won't go back. If I was a young white male looking for a rewarding career I would be wary of joining an organisation which I suspected would treat me differently because of my race, sex or sexual orientation. I would wonder about postings, promotions, allocation of quarters, training opportunities and other career related aspects. Conversely, if I was a young black female I might wonder if my impending career would be stellar because of my race, sex or sexual orientation and not due to my ability and personal qualities. Perhaps this will result in white males doing everything they can to get in, get trained, fly, have fun and get out as soon as possible.
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It needs to be called out for what it is - racism. Deeply ingrained racism.
But because it is aimed, in this instance, at white males, I doubt anything will be done. Nevertheless, it is clear that Sqn Ldr Andrew Harwin is a racist. |
it is clear that Sqn Ldr Andrew Harwin is a racist. |
Ken that does do a bit of disservice to those pilots that were not white during ww2... Just saying.
https://media.nationalarchives.gov.u...fliers-europe/ |
Originally Posted by flash8
(Post 11443662)
I wouldn't be so sure. More likely adopting the PC/equality at all costs culture aligns with potential promotion (meeting artificial targets etc). Many folk go overboard on this issue not because of any inherent racist tendencies (either way) but because they see some personal advantage to be gained out of it.
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Surely the most important word here is 'useless' - does the RAF have selection panels which selects people who look like themselves rather than getting the best people for the job?
Once these cats get out of the bag, they won't go back. If I was a young white male looking for a rewarding career I would be wary of joining an organisation which I suspected would treat me differently because of my race, sex or sexual orientation. I would wonder about postings, promotions, allocation of quarters, training opportunities and other career related aspects. Conversely, if I was a young black female I might wonder if my impending career would be stellar because of my race, sex or sexual orientation and not due to my ability and personal qualities. Perhaps this will result in white males doing everything they can to get in, get trained, fly, have fun and get out as soon as possible. |
Switch this around and you get what has been happening for how many years? Lets face it, for as long as any of us can remember white males have had an advantage |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....60e0053277.jpg
A bunch of female pilots |
Ukraine seem to be doing ok with an airforce made from useless white male pilots. Perhaps those RAF training courses are not going to be quite as useful as Ukraine had hoped . . .
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I've got a revolutionary idea. Since we are talking about the people who we will ask to defend our freedom, how about picking the best person for the job? On second thoughts, bad idea; forget it.
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Stop being revolutionary Herod, a sensible and logical conclusion will never pass muster...
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Originally Posted by flash8
(Post 11443662)
I wouldn't be so sure. More likely adopting the PC/equality at all costs culture aligns with potential promotion (meeting artificial targets etc). Many folk go overboard on this issue not because of any inherent racist tendencies (either way) but because they see some personal advantage to be gained out of it.
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Originally Posted by Ohrly
(Post 11443706)
Ukraine seem to be doing ok with an airforce made from useless white male pilots. Perhaps those RAF training courses are not going to be quite as useful as Ukraine had hoped . . .
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443673)
Surely the most important word here is 'useless' - does the RAF have selection panels which selects people who look like themselves rather than getting the best people for the job?
Switch this around and you get what has been happening for how many years? Lets face it, for as long as any of us can remember white males have had an advantage You can't fight racism with racism. If you try to do this you are a racist. |
Gp Capt Lizzie Nichol
I try very hard, on a daily basis, to not get annoyed by what happens in an organisation that I am no longer a part of. As a white male it’s obvious that the RAF doesn’t miss me anyway, so it’s probably best that I stick by that mantra.
I do have one burning question though. The one person that has come out of the whole shambles smelling of roses is Lizzie Nicholl. I wholeheartedly agree that she did the right thing by highlighting the issue but I wonder what publicity she would have got if she were a white, male Gp Capt. Would the court of public opinion just have told a white, male officer to put up and shut up? Have we actually entered a time where the one group of people who cannot comment on the issue of white males being discriminated against are white males? Is it exclusively everyone else that needs to stand up for the white males before anyone takes notice? Would it be fair to say that everyone that isn’t a white male and fails to speak up does it out of self interest or just fails to see an issue? Because I don’t see a whole lot of sympathy on here from anyone except other white males. Anyway, just throwing that out there to add to the conversation. I’m sure I’ll face a barrage of accusations of being sexist/misogynist/fascist/racist for daring to stick my head above the parapet but c’est la vie. I wish the best of luck to anyone who wants to join the RAF right now but it saddens me to say that, right now, I wouldn’t recommended it to anyone. Here’s hoping that an Engineer CAS is what the RAF has been missing this whole time and he can sort out the mess left by Wigston. BV |
I wish the best of luck to anyone who wants to join the RAF right now but it saddens me to say that, right now, I wouldn’t recommended it to anyone. |
Have we actually entered a time where the one group of people who cannot comment on the issue of white males being discriminated against are white males? Is it exclusively everyone else that needs to stand up for the white males before anyone takes notice? Would it be fair to say that everyone that isn’t a white male and fails to speak up does it out of self interest or just fails to see an issue? Because I don’t see a whole lot of sympathy on here from anyone except other white males. As my scottish wife says to me in discussions on these matters - "You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Originally Posted by etrang
(Post 11443717)
If Ukraine had some black female pilots they might be operating a few squadrons on F16s by now.
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Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements
(Post 11443702)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....60e0053277.jpg
A bunch of female pilots Where’s that bloody coat ? |
I know it is the Mail but…
The RAF is also reportedly paying £5,000 each to 31 white men who it found had been unfairly disadvantaged by its recruitment policy. And some selection boards were cancelled if they did not include women or ethnic minorities, according to the leaked messages. The second email read: 'You will note however that the pot for BAME and female is drained. 'From 336 Cs [candidates] we have c10% female, 5% BAME which we will burn through quickly using the boarding profile proposed. 'As you know we select approx. 45-50% of BAME and female that we board therefore we expect to select c15 female and 7 BAME from the current cohort. 'The demand signal needs to go back to RF [the recruitment force] to focus now on sending all the BAME and female they have. 'We have cancelled 2 x boards next week due to them having no female/BAME or priority Br [priority branch] on them'. The emails date back to when recruitment and selection was led by Group Captain William Dole. He succeeded Group Captain Elizabeth Nicholl, who resigned in protest at what she deemed to be an 'unlawful order' to effectively pause the selection of white men in an effort to hit 'impossible' diversity targets, according to defence sources. The order was never implemented because of her resignation. An RAF spokesman said: 'The Royal Air Force will not shy away from the challenges we face building a Service that attracts and recruits talent from every part of the UK workforce. 'We will continue doing everything we can to increase our recruiting intake from under-represented groups within the provisions of the law. 'All individuals joining the Royal Air Force were and are selected on merit and any individuals that were advanced to their training courses had already passed the selection process. 'There was no compromise of entry standards and no impact on the frontline or operational effectiveness.' It comes after the outgoing chief of the RAF admitted the air force made mistakes in its diversity recruitment drive. Air Chief Marshall Sir Mike Wigston, who is retiring next month, said: 'We were doing all we could to tackle this intractable problem, which is the lack of diversity in our service.' But the Chief of the Air Staff revealed that the failing recruitment drive resulted in the resignation of a senior official, which he described as a 'regrettable outcome'. His goals had been for 40 per cent of the force's personnel to be women and 20 per cent to be from ethnic minorities by the end of the decade. Sir Mike, 55, said one of the mistakes made was that those 'aspirational goals filtered down into people's personal objectives in-year, which they found almost impossible to meet'. 'That put intolerable pressure on them and I've apologised to the recruiting and selection organisation,' he added. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-officers.html |
Ken that does do a bit of disservice to those pilots that were not white during ww2... Just saying. |
"You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Originally Posted by ETOPS
(Post 11443779)
A 7ft Scottish one?
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443759)
I think the response would be that white males have done pretty well out of speaking up for themselves up to now, they don't need much help or sympathy. And what percentage of people on here aren't white males?
As my scottish wife says to me in discussions on these matters - "You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443759)
I think the response would be that white males have done pretty well out of speaking up for themselves up to now, they don't need much help or sympathy. And what percentage of people on here aren't white males?
As my scottish wife says to me in discussions on these matters - "You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Originally Posted by Ken Scott
(Post 11443767)
no disservice intended to anyone who fought for their country. The picture was of some white males who I don’t believe were useless.
Plus, how much immigration into the UK had there been before 1940? Didn't most of that happen in the fifties when the Commonwealth/Empire started breaking up? |
"You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Sexism is sexism. If instead of the words "white" and "male", what if the words "black" and "female" were used?
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443759)
I think the response would be that white males have done pretty well out of speaking up for themselves up to now, they don't need much help or sympathy. And what percentage of people on here aren't white males?
As my scottish wife says to me in discussions on these matters - "You're a middle-class, 6ft white male - what the f*ck have you got to worry about?" |
Originally Posted by m0nkfish
(Post 11443813)
Not all white males have done well for themselves. If we truly want to end racism then remarks like yours need to stop because its not going to happen when we are still identifying and classifying people by their skin colour.
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443834)
Hopefully we'd all agree with that, but how do we get there? What we've been doing up to now doesn't seem to have worked.
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11443834)
Hopefully we'd all agree with that, but how do we get there? What we've been doing up to now doesn't seem to have worked.
Presumably we all agree that racism is a bad thing. You don't fix a bad thing by implementing more of it. |
Not military ... and 'blind selection' of pilots could be somewhat problematic but
https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestr...male-musicians 30% increase in chance of females being selected for a role in orchestras using “blind” auditions - players were visually screened from those evaluating them. |
Perhaps the male RAF candidates should say they identify as female......that would get round the problem perhaps?
I'll get my coat....... |
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