DM sent. It won’t surprise you that he is one of our finest Scribbly inhabitants of Handbrake House. They wonder why they have a bad rep! :ugh:

My dad said that so I told him about Julie Ann Gibson, Jo Salter, Kirsty Moore, Jules Fleming, Helen Seymour, Victoria Turner, and all of the (at least) 121 women who have been RAF pilots. Do not forget Michelle Goodman (DFC!).

Personally I don't think people should need "role models" and I would happily have been number one if it happened to matter, not that it does. I also agree that nobody should let themselves be put off by one statement, as one prominent youtube fast jet person puts it, make them tell you no.

But in the end, that idiotic statement comes from person who is wrong 121 times and 32 years out of date given Julie Gibson qualified in 1991.

The ban on not wearing Uniform outside of work because of the IRA was lifted in the 2000's. The rules may have changed after what happened to Lee Rigby though. I left the service 9 years ago so I have no idea what the rules currently are but in 2008/9 the service wanted us to be seen in uniform in public places.

A real shame our servicemen are forced to look over their shoulders in their own country. Better if the security service made Abdul look over his.

The sad thing is, even the RAF forgot that Julie was not the first woman to get the RAF Pilot Flying Badge - that honour lay with Fg Off Jean Lennox Bird RAFVR and FOUR others after her from 1952 to 1954. Julie wasn’t even the first Regular Aircrew either - that was Patricia Howard, who went on to become Flt Lt Pat Magill and was an Air Loadmaster from 1968.

https://solentaviatrix.wordpress.com...en-first-five/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patric...ying)%20Branch.

So really, by 1991, this should have been seen as fairly normal as we’d been at it for nearly 40 years by then!

In a time of impeding conflict, does it not make sense to pick and train the best candidates for the job? REGARDLESS, of colour, sex, educational qualifications or class.

Where's my tin hat?

Given that the role of any military force is to prepare itself to win wars and not come second, the selection process should reflect this aim by ensuring it has the best available personnel. The model that comes to mind is our national athletics team where, for instance, the 4 x 100 team is normally nearly all black because they are the best and that is who you want if you are to win. There is no suggestion that this team should reflect the ethnic mix of the country as this would inevitably make it less competitive, similarly we should not undermine the warfighting capability of our forces by imposing arbitrary targets for race, sexual orientation or gender.

Really sorry to hear you are pulling out of what could be an amazing career. I've been out for several years now and it's possible there has been some change within the organisation but I find it hard to believe the people have changed that much, and in all the time I was serving we had individuals on the Squadrons I worked on who were from all different backgrounds, race, religion and gender and I never saw someone getting a free pass because they were a particular colour, sex, etc, not even when I was a flying instructor, all were treated equally.

You will need to work seriously hard and be super committed and focused to get through flying training irrespective of your background; I think thats one of the amazing things about getting to wear the RAF flying badge, everyone who does get to wear one has genuinely worked their socks off and proved their ability in an incredibly arduous, long, demanding but also fair and uncorrupted (at least when I was in!) training system.

Maybe try to connect with some of the people who are currently serving, going through the training system/have come out the other end and find out what it's actually like as it would be a shame to have come this far through selection and throw in the towel because of some, admittedly abhorrent and inexcusable, racism by some senior RAF officers (who definitely should know better).

Yup.

Selection on the basis of merit is appropriate.

• Colour is not relevant to competency, competency is. The Japanese-American 442nd IR RCT was awarded >4000 Purple Hearts, >4000 Bronze stars, and 21 MoH. Out of 3523 MoH's 95 were awarded to black African Americans, one recipient being a double MoH recipient, one of only 19 of those.
• Gender made no difference with skill as snipers or even fighter pilots. (pretty sure there are days when I wouldn't want to be undertaking 1v1 with my better half).
• Religion? have a look at Normandy, the headstones are not all catholic.
• 3 conscientious objectors were awarded MoH's.
• 1 female was awarded a MoH. 1. WTH.
• 12 Nepalese were awarded VC's.
• 29 Indians were awarded VC's,
• 1 fijian, 1 Grenadan, 2 Maori's, .... VC's. 1 Ukranian...

sexism, racism has no place in selection of competency, to do so ensures that you are diminishing the opportunity to have the best of the best. Equal opportunity should not be a selection bias towards or against one group. There is an inherent background bias that exists that can affect selection, and a preparatory course pre-selection would level that playing field that occurs from socio-economic experiences.

The LT COL guy below did 143 combat missions in Round II, flew 100 more combat missions in Korea as a fighter pilot, and is photographed here in Viet-Nam, with his RF-4C white skinned back seater. He was the CO of the 16th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron (TRS), of the 460th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing, out of TSN.

In spite of racism and segregation the Tuskegee African Americans contributed competency to the allied effort, and produced a number of well respected flag rank officers who served with distinction. There was no positive bias, and as always those of colour or the wrong gender are not reflected in the honours awarded, the system is biased towards it's own ends.

If the UK wishes to have the best staff, the current process is not going to achieve that any more than the prior system did.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b9f591c9d3.jpg



here's your top cover.

'Useless white male pilots are clearly not the flavour of the month in the woke establishment:

New TV series will dismantle Colditz ‘mythology’ and show racism of British officersDear oh dear. The point about Bader is that fought as hard as he could to defend our country in the face of the biggest threat since the Norman Conquests. He certainly wasn't from a priveleged background and depended on the charity of others to get him through the system. He was a huge inspration to others. Certainly a rough diamond and certainly controversial and that was eighty years ago in a dire national crisis.

This woke lot are all about deconstructing our identity and re building it in some kind of cultural marxist way. I don't know why the Telegraph even bothered to run this story. It seems like they are in on the act too.

Over the years Bader has been much discussed on this forum.

The overall conclusion was that he was very brave, very tough, incredibly driven - and he wasn't a nice man at all. I don't think he was much more of a racist or a snob than maybe others of his time and place. He was unpleasant to everyone, not just the lower classes.

But then how do you make yet another documentary on Colditz that anyone will watch without deliberately stirring up controversy??

Why then big airlines in the desert (away from woke policies) which pay well and have numerous candidates are selecting mostly white male pilots?
It would be easier and cheaper for them to recruit BAME

I certainly heard two views of Bader when I was in the service. One was that he was unpleasant and one that that was just a facade and he was a really warm human being behind it all.

The comment that sticks was from a flight deck visitor in the nineties who had been a Sgt pilot on 242 Squadron. When asked what the guy was like his answer was:

"He was a very go ahead bloke and that was just what was needed at that time"

Probably as close to the horses mouth as you will get and a nice way to be remembered.

I understand from recent threads that the same could be said of Gibson and indeed of Churchill..

Today’s Sunday Times
 

Rod Liddle today:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b63b69787.jpeg

And indeed ( heresy as it is) W@@kle-Brown. As stated in one of his reviews “ possessed of a certain froideur”. I attended one of his presentations many moons ago and at the after drinks stage he was verging on the dismissive, barely interested…and downright rude, to some fairly well decorated and interested participants. I’d like to think some of his experiences at Nuremberg etc may have honed his outlook on life…more likely that high achievers such as he, Bader, Gibson etc just required a certain make up
to function in the way that they did.

Can we get back to the point of this thread, rather than debating whether Bader and Gibson were nice people or not?

Probably not. Because the thread has been done to death. Recruit on merit…all well functioning organizations are meritocracies…and that should be the only criteria.
Attempt to inculcate an interest in service / general aviation in all parts of society and stop buggaring about with targets/ attempts at social engineering and having to pay out asinine amounts of money as a result.

Thread opened with reports of comments and overview by the Head of the RAF Selection Board.Probably a correct view but articulation choice and chosen platform a touch questionable. Even Prez Rishi might be regretting saying stuff on his "App" - whatever that is.

Change in this area has been predictably slow.

Took me three attempts in the 60's to gain an offer of Cranwell Cadetship. At OASC Biggin, I never saw one female (actually, anywhere!).- Nothing changing over 6 year period.

I do have skin in this game (pun intended). In all three selection visits to Biggin, I was the only dusky to be seen

Civil aviation changed a bit faster but still not fast enough.

I failed Cathay selection in 1978 because,looking at my application photo and place of Birth, DFO thought I was Indian and binned the process.

Historic compensation for racial preference would be mind blowing. Can't be bothered. I'll stick with Judge Juidy & a Jack & Coke.
..

Back in the '60s when I was about 15 years old, I joined the Chorleywood branch of 'Air Britain' where we had at talk by 'Paddy' Barthrup and he was totally different; chatting to anyone and everyone.

Yes I know, but the reason some people would prefer to talk about the more recent examples is probably because their parents are looking for certain things before they will be very enthusiastic about a job. Showing people like my parents a picture of someone in number one service dress in a nice modern office is going to get a much better reaction than showing someone strolling around a grubby world war 2 hangar in overalls. Obviously you don't tell them which of those things you are personally more into.

To monkfish and Uplinker thanks but I think my bridges are burned at this point. You can say I don't know enough about the RAF to say all this, and you would be right, but I have to make the decision based on what I know. Everything I know tells me that the RAF is not the sort of organisation it presents itself as being. I just don't want it anymore. I just don't know how much of what they told me was true and how much of it was politics. However someone did say to me that if I was ever lucky enough to be in a position to smash into the side of a welsh valley at 450 knots I will die in exactly the same way as anyone else, which is bad way to discover you are a diversity hire.

On the upside apparently it takes 7 years to qualify as an RAF pilot at the moment and I can be qualified as a doctor and done with the first foundation year by that point. And nobody's really going to be in a position of saying there aren't enough brown people in the NHS. And I say that as we are coming up to some junior doctor strikes, I must be some sort of idiot.

My god Parminder......dare I say it but you are a "victim" of this lunacy! I absolutely understand why you'd feel the way you do. I'm so sorry that you were let down by supposedly intelligent people who've done untold damage when they really should have known better. I suspect Wigston and his disgraceful cabale will never be held to account for this travesty. The bloody fool probably thinks he did a great job! Good luck in whatever you do!

Surely the point is a lot of self justification, from people who have never really experienced discrimination, about how they only got their job because they were the best?

The US military was desegregated by an Executive order many were not happy about at the time. Into the 60s officers coming out who had literally "commanded nuclear bombers" were denied airline jobs specifically because they were not white. The issue then had to work through the courts. When I look at old photos displayed in or training center of new-hire classes to me there appears to be something absent there and surely we missed out on a lot of good people. Equity and inclusion policies address equality of opportunity but in 2023 with cockpits still overwhelmingly white and male we still have a long way to go.

Koan
 

Your last statement may be true. But only if those non-white males and females have been denied the opportunity because of their race or gender.

I don’t want to be a midwife. Do you think that hospitals should be forced to hire 50% male midwives? After all, that would be inclusive and equal.

Before becoming a pilot I was a qualified primary school teacher of 7-11 year olds. I was overwhelmingly surrounded by females in every school I taught in. Should schools be forced to hire 50% male teachers?

Can you see my point or do you wish to keep rattling off the same old arguments that got us to where we are today?

If you want to see racism come to the region of the world in which I currently work. Trust me when I say it isn’t the white people dishing it out here.

Does racism exist in Britain? Almost certainly in some corners. Do I think our armed forces are racist in their recruiting practices by dint of the fact there aren’t higher numbers of people of non-white origin? I think you already know the answer but you think it makes you big and clever to trot out tired old stories from 60 years ago.

BV

TheOneWhoNeverWas
Are you saying that seeing this kind of stuff has no influence at all?


Surely a female officer receiving her wings in 1952 alongside men some 71 years ago is a very positive image? Alongside that of her peer, Jackie Moggridge, who has a great book “Spitfire Girl” which is soon to be a TV series. Are you saying these are a waste of time? There are many females that would disagree with that from those I have spoken with. Also, culturally, then both Pakistan and India have female Pilots and other Aircrew in their Air Forces for some time.


So why is there an adverse reaction from those 1st or 2nd generation British Asian parents as you describe? It doesn’t seem to make sense. :)

I agree people really must WANT to become commercial airline pilots, more than midwives. That may be a factor keeping women on the job for the long haul. Witnessed several sign-off early or avoid upgrade to stay home. Self-funding's economic component has a racial factor that cannot be denied. Nobody is being denied an opportunity to interview or be hired any longer. But there are no quotas, inclusion is aspirational. Now more than ever seats need to be filled. The new hire classes are still mostly what one would expect they would be. Overwhelmingly white and male. The schools and University I live by are not. People come from diverse communities where previously role models were few and far between, so such a dream was never considered. On the other hand I just flew with a guy retiring soon whose father and grandfather were both airline pilots. He must have told me 5 times. So he grew up around the industry much easier to follow the path. Complete dinosaur who laughs at his own mysoginistic/homophobic jokes while spouting political tropes and thinly veiled bigotry. My own parents told me becoming a pilot would be impossible because of my ethnicity. The idea that people such as this feel they are victims now while the vast majority of pilots (and the CEOS, Politicians, etc) are all white males is sickening. Bon Voyage to them.

Good points. However, to behave outside of social norms is unacceptable (ask "itler"). We are a product of our environment. As pointed out Bader's attitude, snobbery, class consciousness, was a product of the culture and society he lived in and not unusual. To behave differently would have been unusual. To state that it is sickening to feel the victim now that things have changed when you have only been behaving as your culture, society always has is short sighted. Feeling discriminated and a victim against is justifiable when that is what is happening. Such as a white 20 old year old when a) you were not part of the society or culture that discriminated, showed bigotry and racism b) and now you are being discriminated, shown bigotry and racism. Given the vast majority of CEO's, Pollies, etc. are white males (not all, either vast majority or all but difficult to be vast majority and all) may be unpleasant but times are changing. At least recognise that. In countries such as Japan, Korea, China, India, Iran, Iraq, etc do you feel justified in calling out the discrimination and bigotry and racism whereby their CEO's, Pollies are not of different ethencity/race?

Yes, barriers need to be broken but to vilify people because of their race, culture, society and what has happened is well just a repeat on history and not really a step forward. Yes, you may well say it is still happening but until we have moved forward a few more generations there will be the remnants of that era still around.

Yes indeed. Zay are only following ze orders!

There are still substantial groups of white British people that look down on anyone joining the armed services

That's an interesting observation, I've often wondered if recruiters use such lines for exactly that reason - my first contact when I walked into the RAF Careers office in the mid-80s said 'Not many people from this part of the world (Glasgow) make it as an officer' and followed up shortly later by 'How do you feel about having to look under your car for bombs every morning'

I had no idea ...... which stratum or socio-economic cohort has such a mind set please....... I must have had sheltered monarchist patriotic militaristic surroundings all 86 years!

If you still consider a career in the RAF as a doctor I think you could get a bursary towards the cost BTW.

See

https://recruitment.raf.mod.uk/sponsorship

https://viewer.joomag.com/medical-sp...9564825?short&

every wondered why serving in the military (especially as officers) tends to run in families?

I know ONE member of my extended family that is thinking of joining the RAF - and that's the first one in my lifetime (other than the poor sods who were conscripted)

I know of no-one in our local village who ever served or has any member of their family in the military.

One friend had a son who flew Apaches - but he quit and went off to fly in the N Sea.

None of our kids friends have ever joined up.

It isn't a career path that exists on the radar of many young people these days and that's what the recruitment figures have told us for years

To be fair, I don't think it was him wanting to change the demographics. He was just following orders from CAS, COS Pers, the 1* etc.

Large tracts of Liverpool and Glasgow?

An interesting graphic depicting Numbers of Military Personnel as percentage of total population of several different nations.

Might begin to explain a bit about the overall problem of military recruiting in general when compared to career choices of younger generations.

Of interest is the "spikes" and the years those are seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/m...tal-population

Narrowing the focus a bit, while on an army course (platoon commanders battle course, 1983) I visited the country pile of a fellow student (Rupert C+++++, Coldstream Guards). His parents were decidedly sniffy that an RAF officer was on the course. Even colder when their daughter showed an interest in said officer!

Batco

Very interesting graph thank you. British army non-officer reruiting until the Boer War 1899 1902 was often driven by famine or was seasonal, when the annual cycle of harvest and winter meant casual labourers flocked to the colours in mid winter.

Inter-Branch Rivalry
 

What an inane comment. Following this sort of silly logic, I could - justifiably - state that most of the RAF's problems over the past 40 years have been the result of appointing fast jet pilots as CAS: all were incompetent but hey they all had ingrained "leadership" qualities! Clearly, I am joking.

I never flew with any women or minority ethnic pilots. I just flew with fellow pilots.