Surely, the effort should be made to attract candidates for application from the target groups rather than negatively select those who do apply. Selection should be about selection of the best, regardless of gender or race. Anything else is doing Vladimir Putin and Xi Xing Ping's work for them. The aim of the RAF in peacetime should be to train for war. It seems some people at the top have forgotten this.
|
Originally Posted by NutLoose I cannot see a problem with that
Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements
(Post 11444175)
...other than it's saying they'll be limited to a support role
I cannot see a problem with that, bar Inuits in that time period very few would be any other colour in Canada, its just targetting the mass market, similar if you were running a campaign in the Caribbean you would be targetting the local population, so that would be mainly Caribbean men and women on the poster... its all about context, you would not fill a canadian recruitment poster with coloured individuals if next to none lived there. |
Originally Posted by gsa
(Post 11444112)
My view with the lack of recruits is the whole, and I’m sorry to have to say it, Old Boys Club attitude in the military. We all know that the RAF are a white middle class organisation and you can’t change 100 years of history overnight or without causing headlines.
We have a 15 year old girl, she’s bright, works hard at school and is in the air cadets and her aim was to go to the RAF as a pilot and we give her as much encouragement as we can. BUT she lost all interest when a Corporal on the Typhoon display team said to her last year “ You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl” Anybody with the ability should be encouraged to apply and not be penalised by Sex, Colour or Gender but they shouldn’t be given any special treatment and there should be a level playing field for them all. This isn’t the 40s or even the 80s, times have changed and people have to really get over the prejudices of the past and move on. |
Originally Posted by Ohrly
(Post 11444213)
Have you tried showing her that what she was told is nonsense? There are interviews with female RAF pilots on Aircrew Interview (Youtube) which would be far more useful to her than the opinion of a moron.
|
Mandy Hickson could be used as an example of the possibility for female pilots in the RAF. She has authored a very readable book about her experiences: "An Officer, not a Gentleman"
on-line interview here: |
Originally Posted by gsa
(Post 11444112)
We have a 15 year old girl, she’s bright, works hard at school and is in the air cadets and her aim was to go to the RAF as a pilot and we give her as much encouragement as we can. BUT she lost all interest when a Corporal on the Typhoon display team said to her last year “ You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl” on. |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11444001)
So the solution is?
|
Originally Posted by gsa
(Post 11444112)
My view with the lack of recruits is the whole, and I’m sorry to have to say it, Old Boys Club attitude in the military. We all know that the RAF are a white middle class organisation and you can’t change 100 years of history overnight or without causing headlines.
We have a 15 year old girl, she’s bright, works hard at school and is in the air cadets and her aim was to go to the RAF as a pilot and we give her as much encouragement as we can. BUT she lost all interest when a Corporal on the Typhoon display team said to her last year “ You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl” Anybody with the ability should be encouraged to apply and not be penalised by Sex, Colour or Gender but they shouldn’t be given any special treatment and there should be a level playing field for them all. This isn’t the 40s or even the 80s, times have changed and people have to really get over the prejudices of the past and move on. My own daughter became the senior cadet at our local Air Training Corps squadron and went on to do very well as a member of a University Air Squadron whilst at Uni. I had high hopes that she would make an excellent pilot (she is a natural car driver) but she decided that the RAF wasn’t for her. Possibly because she went on to get an honours first in psychology! ;) |
Pale and male
I never served. But I learnt to fly courtesy of a Flying Scholarship so long ago that I passed through the hallowed portals of OASC Biggin Hill. And I was told that my chances of selection for an RAF career would improve if I learnt to ride a horse and took up public speaking. Is that attitude still prevalent ?
A BAME friend who joined the RAF was shunned by his family for some time because it was not considered a sufficiently financially rewarding career. Go to any civilian flying club and it is mainly OWM. That is the demographic that wants to fly. |
Originally Posted by kms901
(Post 11444292)
Go to any civilian flying club and it is mainly OWM. That is the demographic that wants to fly.
|
Some people want to become footballers and rappers. Some are musical, some artistic. Some want to fly.
|
Originally Posted by gsa
(Post 11444112)
times have changed and people have to really get over the prejudices of the past and move on.
|
One of the most feared and well-regarded “aggressor” pilots on A4s at NAS Oceana in the late 80’s was a lovely girl called Lucy, callsign “Juicy”. Gave us a good thrashing - in the purely ACM sense! Certainly sharpened the chaps up.
In a later career, I flew with many members of the opposite sex and and only found one that I regarded as sub-standard. As a rule they were extremely competent and very well liked by the crew. My final trip in the -400 was with one such delightful young lady and she brought me a massive cake in the shape of a 747! Mog |
Originally Posted by Timelord
(Post 11444241)
I must say I am absolutely astonished by this story. My service ceased in 2000 and women aircrew were already “ not an issue”, it has only become an issue now because of the culture wars raging all around us. If the person described was really a Cpl on the Typhoon force he (I presume) would have strapped in plenty of female pilots, including a female Squadron Commander. Are things really going backwards so fast that people think like that again?
Not a representative viewpoint anyway. |
Sir,
Has the RAF gone down the road of one of these damnable suicide cults that seem intent on their own destruction? Insanity seems complete within the organisation. I ask only for information. Yours, Auxtank |
Originally Posted by tubby linton
(Post 11444083)
The Chief of the Air Staff twitter account is now blocking people for raising this issue. It really is not a good look for a senior military leader to appear to be unresponsive to criticism.
https://twitter.com/archrose90/statu...E45vRCEVK1CH9Q |
Originally Posted by Jobza Guddun
(Post 11444315)
If the story is correct, then this Cpl is highly likely to have never known an RAF without female aircrew, so the attitude is puzzling. Maybe a reservist or member of a Trade Group that doesn't engage with aircrew? Could've been the PR Team element rather than one of the techs on the Display Team.
Not a representative viewpoint anyway. |
Originally Posted by downsizer
(Post 11444322)
You do realise it isn't him ffs, there is a lackey running it with a team that decides what to put out.
Question remains; What on Earth are you lot who still have irons in the fire going to do about it? It really won't do, you know. |
Originally Posted by kms901
(Post 11444292)
That is the demographic that wants to fly.
|
"useless white male pilots" sounds to me like the words of an embittered female bluntie with a well-developed chip.
Is this S.Ldr male or female? And how long will she remain in employment before dismissal SNLR and no pension? |
Originally Posted by gsa
(Post 11444223)
We’re slowly turning her back into a positive view, but as lots have said, it only takes one in uniform that’s the voice of the service to put a doubt in someone’s mind. At least she’s still doing her gliding and a bit of rotary to keep her busy.
|
Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements
(Post 11444364)
...or it's the one that can afford to fly! :{
FB PS My own brother was an SAC Supplier, his youngest son, although not aircrew, is an RAF Regiment Squadron Leader. |
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
(Post 11444375)
I never knew that personal wealth was a prerequisite to join the RAF as aircrew, just the necessary academic qualifications, medical fitness and the ability to impress the review board, with your depth of character and ability to solve practical and written aptitude tests.
Go to any civilian flying club and it is mainly OWM. That is the demographic that wants to fly. |
Originally Posted by downsizer
(Post 11444322)
You do realise it isn't him ffs, there is a lackey running it with a team that decides what to put out.
|
I bet if the U.K. was under the real threat of invasion, all this target crap would be the first thing to be thrown out of the window. ;)
.. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11444450)
I bet if the U.K. was under the real threat of invasion, all this target crap would be the first thing to be thrown out of the window. ;)
.. |
Very sad state of affairs for the RAF. It seems we have gone full circle from the days 80 years ago when overconfident US pilots were told IJN pilots were all half blind bespectacled myopic pilots flying in aircraft made of cardboard and bamboo frame... This kind of race based comments and beliefs turned out to have dreadful costs and I believe the same teachings still apply today as enormous harm has been inflicted to the integrity of the RAF ab initio selection. It is already hard enough in most western countries to find recruits willing to embrace a career in the air forces where much more lucrative options are readily available to all races and genders.
Alleged discrimination in favour of women and minorities are unlikely to produce the expected results anyway. |
Originally Posted by kms901
(Post 11444292)
I never served. But I learnt to fly courtesy of a Flying Scholarship so long ago that I passed through the hallowed portals of OASC Biggin Hill. And I was told that my chances of selection for an RAF career would improve if I learnt to ride a horse and took up public speaking. Is that attitude still prevalent ?
A BAME friend who joined the RAF was shunned by his family for some time because it was not considered a sufficiently financially rewarding career. Go to any civilian flying club and it is mainly OWM. That is the demographic that wants to fly. |
Pardon my ignorance here but wrt the term ‘OWM’ - I think I can guess the WM but what does the ‘O’ stand for please?
I have obviously led a sheltered life! |
Originally Posted by BANANASBANANAS
(Post 11444512)
Pardon my ignorance here but wrt the term ‘OWM’ - I think I can guess the WM but what does the ‘O’ stand for please?
I have obviously led a sheltered life! |
It defies belief that CAS, and PM for that matter, use Twitter in the first place. Don’t they learn from the problems it caused Trump and Johnson ?
|
Many of us OWM were once YWM and not useless since we passed OASC and had full careers as RAF pilots:ok:
I was landscape gardener before I joined, had never flown before and definitely couldn't ride a horse:) |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 11444529)
Many of us OWM were once YWM and not useless since we passed OASC and had full careers as RAF pilots:ok:
I was landscape gardener before I joined, had never flown before and definitely couldn't ride a horse:) |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 11444271)
The solution is to recruit those with the best abilities for the job, irrespective of gender or race. Forget any “woke” targets.
|
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11444537)
I'm sure we all agree, but they have to apply in the first place - that's clearly not happening, what needs to change to increase the pool of talent available to select from?
I agree but to be fair getting anyone to apply to join the armed forces these days seems almost impossible. Of all my family, contacts, neighbours, social media etc there is a single person who is contemplating a career in the military........................ and he'll be the first one in over 10 years if he does join. |
SWBKCB
Is anyone actually able to answer the question of whether we have, or are about to, run out of suitable white male volunteers? Are the current crop of white males actually useless and failing to make it through selection or flying training?
We keep hearing about how the RAF needs to select from a wider pool to ensure the best talent is identified and selected. Surely the best pool to select from is the ones who want to do it. Not the pool of people who have had to have their arms twisted. I believe that there truly are some talented people out there who haven’t previously thought about joining the military and that they would be an asset to the organisation. But, in the meantime, why not just select those that want to join. BV |
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
(Post 11444569)
Is anyone actually able to answer the question of whether we have, or are about to, run out of suitable white male volunteers? Are the current crop of white males actually useless and failing to make it through selection or flying training?
We keep hearing about how the RAF needs to select from a wider pool to ensure the best talent is identified and selected. Surely the best pool to select from is the ones who want to do it. Not the pool of people who have had to have their arms twisted. I believe that there truly are some talented people out there who haven’t previously thought about joining the military and that they would be an asset to the organisation. But, in the meantime, why not just select those that want to join. BV The RAF barely puts any adverts out now, when they do they are boring, bland, woke nonsense. |
M0nkfish
I agree with you. However, in order to get through my days without grinding my teeth down I need to go back to remembering two key things.
1. I’m not in the RAF any more so I needn’t worry what they’re up to and I have no power to change it if I did. 2. Times have changed and recruitment policies and demographics have changed so I should stop concerning myself with stuff that won’t affect me. Best of luck to the RAF and, for the love of God, can someone find this Sqn Ldr moron named in the article and give him a good hard kick in the stones. I’m sure there are a bunch of white male pilots who could do a pretty good job of doing that even if they are, allegedly, not useful for anything else. BV |
I don't know if it has changed in the last 2 years since my youngest went to OASC - he didn't pass but the Sqn Ldr in charge told me that even though the pass mark was 120 (IIRC) they weren't actually selecting below 145.
Now I have no idea how relevant the tests are to what an RAF pilot is expected to do nowadays but if you have a pass mark and people achieve it, why filter further? You are denying suitably gifted people the chance and creating an elitist system - no wonder people don't want to join. By setting the bar very high and then failing to put them through the training system in a reasonable time frame - you have two elements that might just show why recruitment is an issue. |
BV,
I would suggest that as the RAF has not raised its maximum age for Pilot applications, there are still enough enthusiastic, eligible and qualified individuals applying (when the windows are open that is) and willing to suffer the currently sclerotic and torturous journey that is MFTS to fly one of His Majesty's aircraft…When Wigston started off on this crusade (can we say that?) I was fully supportive. The RAF of the future doesn't need the same skill sets as the RAF of the 1970s. The aircraft are far easier to fly, but the mission complexity and systems have become far more difficult to manage and master. We need less pure 'stick and rudder' aptitude and more STEM-based capacity and SA. My own kids are, currently, doing well at Uni - including in STEM subjects such as computing/digital technology and have not the merest flicker of interest in serving. The Armed Forces are facing a stiff challenge for these youngsters from IT, communications and Social Media companies - in fact my son received a 'cadetship' from a major tech firm, which paid him a salary at Uni and covered his tuition fees. Four years, good degree, starting salary north of £35k and no student debt. For somebody that doesn't want to 'march up and down the square', it's a compelling offer. I had hoped Wigston's mission was to encourage and target STEM individuals to run our cyber capabilities, operate our AI-supported battle networks and operate (note, not 'fly') the Combat platforms of the future - and to go into areas of our society, including BAME groups, that have traditionally not considered the RAF as a viable, indeed 'respectable', career to find them. Sadly, my ignorance is laid bare. It's clearly little more than an attempt for a conspiracy of officers, throughout the CoC, to find a bandwagon to leap on to accelerate their careers by filling utterly arbitrary targets to enable KPIs on OJARs to be 'ticked' and for ex-CAS to preen himself in front of his political masters…and in doing so, it does little if anything to further the cause of equality in the Service. |
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