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Question. BBC Rogue SAS Heroes series
Really enjoying it and 4 shows in so far on Sky. The question is in one scene the British Intelligence officer who is Army is seen wearing RAF wings, did the Army pilots during the war wear the same wings? It just looked strange, especially as he was an intelligence officer. Bunch of Bloody nutters BTW, doing a parachute jump without any real training just to see if it could be done, then doing a jump in the middle of a sandstorm.
It is made by the people that were responsible for Peaky Blinders BTW https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...ow_SEG_CRRD%5D |
Won't be watching anymore as my OCD levels of accuracy were sending me into twitches with the inaccuracies and mistakes, and the horror at using 70's/80's rock music for 'effect'.......
I know its only 'entertainment' but...... |
You mean like the Dak's windows, did you spot that?
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Nutloose,
JW411 is the man to answer your wings and army question. In his book 'United in effort', the story of 53 Sqn there are a lot of references to Dick Maydwell, a Somerset Light Infantry officer who flew with 53 early in WW2 before transferring to the RAF. There is also a photo that shows an army officer, Major Hannay, and he has RAF wings on his army uniform. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11323693)
The question is in one scene the British Intelligence officer who is Army is seen wearing RAF wings, did the Army pilots during the war wear the same wings? It just looked strange, especially as he was an intelligence officer.
The RAF did train a certain number of Army Officers - mainly for Army Co-op squadrons and they would wear RAF Wings. I have read an autobio by an Army Co-op pilot who managed to transfer to the RAF - ending up on Mustangs and then Typhoon. An excerpt from Jefford - SOLDIER PILOTS IN THE RAF 1920-41 https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documen...Journal-54.pdf The stated aim was now merely ‘to produce for army co-operation squadrons a reserve of pilots who are also trained as Army officers’. The Army Council Instruction (ACI) went on to spell out that this involved an individual’s accepting a, now clearly stated, obligation to be recalled to fly with an AC squadron in the event of mobilisation throughout the four years following his return to the Army on completion of his, still four-year, secondment. Throughout that four-year reserve period a pilot was committed to attending an annual fourteen-day ‘refresher’ 145 with an AC squadron. The intake had been reduced to just eight per year, so that the numbers on secondment ‘at any given time will not exceed 32.’ Another very obvious sign of the change in emphasis was that, although officers on secondment were still awarded a temporary commission in the RAF in the rank of flying officer, they were no longer required to wear RAF uniform; they were now to ‘wear the uniform of their corps or regiment, with RAF “wings” on service dress’. |
I had a wave of nostalgia with the Rapide. It was the first aeroplane I ever rode in. Dad won two seats in a guess the height competition at an air display at Bassingbourn when I was about 4 or 5. Mum had to stay on the ground and watch.
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11323700)
You mean like the Dak's windows, did you spot that?
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Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.
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Originally Posted by dead_pan
(Post 11323732)
Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.
Yes the Beeb have strayed from the authorized history. And therefore the book. And Blair Paddy Mayne was a bigger maniac in the flesh than even they portray him. |
Originally Posted by dead_pan
(Post 11323732)
Has anyone read Ben McIntyre's book on which this is based? Guessing some liberties have been taken here and there.
I suspect the better book might be the one from 15 odd years ago, written by Gordon Stevens, called 'The Originals', which was based on long filmed/recorded interviews he had done back in the early 80's with the then surviving 'originals' incl Stirling and others such as Reg Seekings, Johnny Cooper, Jim Almonds, Bob Bennett etc. |
Originally Posted by GeeRam
(Post 11323727)
Forget the windows, as we didn't have an Dak's in North Africa in mid-1941.......in fact we didn't have an Dak's anywhere in the RAF in 1941..!!
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The military windows incidentally had round gun ports in them so the pax down the back could defend against air attacks with their rifles!! gulp
This shot shows them https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...15655981_c.jpg |
The character in question is the real life Brigadier - then colonel - Dudley Clarke who joined the army during WWI and then transferred to the RFC, had flight training and then moved back to the Royal Artillery. It's RFC wings he's wearing. I was curious myself for the same reason and looked him up in Wikipedia!
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Thank you all for the answers and thank you Heid.... Welcome to the forums as well. :)
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Unfortunately none of the transport types they had at the time are still around - even in museums as far as I’m aware.
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Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11323774)
Unfortunately none of the transport types they had at the time are still around - even in museums as far as I’m aware.
Jack |
Originally Posted by MENELAUS
(Post 11323745)
Yes the Beeb have strayed from the authorized history. And therefore the book. And Blair Paddy Mayne was a bigger maniac in the flesh than even they portray him.
I hope the BBC don't take too many liberties; it was already a perfectly good story without the need to use artistic license. |
Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
(Post 11323750)
It is not a documentary and I thought the first episode depicted the characters and events described in Ben Macintyre's excellent book very well. Since there are no Vickers Valentia's about I give the makers credit for using a real period aircraft and not resorting to CG.
CG |
Originally Posted by Heid
(Post 11323758)
The character in question is the real life Brigadier - then colonel - Dudley Clarke who joined the army during WWI and then transferred to the RFC, had flight training and then moved back to the Royal Artillery. It's RFC wings he's wearing. I was curious myself for the same reason and looked him up in Wikipedia!
There could be a variety of reasons depending on the age of the Army Officer concerned Just some of the Army pilots attached to the RAFin 1943 - 2770 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 18 JUNE, 1943 Pit. Offs. to be Fig. Offs. (war subs.). I9th Feb. 1943: — D. T. ARGENT (Lt. R. Fus.) (49592). G. C. BENSUSAN (Lt. P. Corps.) (49593). A. B. BRENTNALL (Lt. Lan. Fus.) (49595). J. T. BURKE (Lt. Oxf. & Bucks L.I.) (49597)-R. S. CLARK (Lt. R. Signals) (49598). A. H. GREENHALGH (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49603). R. P. HOWE (2nd Lt. Essex R.) (49604). D. L. HURFORD (2nd Lt. R.A.C.) (49605). D. H. G. INCE (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49606). W. M. INGRAM (Lt. K.S.L.I.) (49607). K. O. JENKINS ('Lt. K.O.R.R.) (49608). J. D. KEIGHTLEY (Lt. R.A.) (49609). R. S. W. KEMP (2nd Lt. R.A.C.) (49610). J. R. P. KENNEDY (2nd Lt. A. & S.H.) (49611). R. I. MACKINTOSH (Lt. R.A.) (49614). J. W. W. METCALFE (Lt. R. North'd Fus.) (49615). P.*D. MITCHELL (Lt. (tempy. Capt.) Surrey R.) (49616). K. S. MORRIS (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49617). E. J. PACKWOOD (Lt. R.W. Fus.) (49618). T. S. RAYNER (Lt. Bedfs. & Herts R.) (49620). I. A. L. STEWART (Lt. A. & S.H.) (49623). R. G. WEST (2nd Lt. R.A.) (49625). H. B. GRYNKIEWICZ (2nd Lt. General List) (49628). 20th Feb. 1943. |
Depending on your podcast source, the tv series is interestingly discussed by Al Murray and James Holland as one of their ‘We Have Ways of Making You Talk’ episodes;
”James and Al give their thoughts on what they got right, what they got wrong and whether overall the show is faithful to the spirit of the events.” Here is the Spotify link… https://open.spotify.com/episode/6yd...SlCxW5zZ-xLSlA |
Movie recall
Can anyone recall a movie (1960s?) In which a group of ex army soldiers return to the (Libyan ?)desert to retrieve some loot they hid there during WW2?
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What really surprised me was that a number of the "109s" were clearly Buchons, and as these were models/props why on earth do that? Especially as plenty of the aircraft depicted were Me109s.
Bizarre! |
Despite the inaccuracies listed above it was a very entertaining watch. Personally I'm in awe of the "Originals" and proud of their bravery and persistence :ok:
NEO |
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 11324032)
What really surprised me was that a number of the "109s" were clearly Buchons, and as these were models/props why on earth do that? Especially as plenty of the aircraft depicted were Me109s.
Bizarre! https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....042a0193b1.jpg |
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Thanks, as I said I never looked closely, That's weird, I wonder if they were left over from another film and re used.
Thinking about it, there are quite a few Buchons in the UK based at Sywell, so I wonder if they were used for filming the scenes where the SAS are moving amongst the aircraft. Probably the same aircraft below. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b92c9d48_c.jpg |
FWIW I think Ben Macintyre's BBC documentary of a few years' ago was very good - on iPlayer I think - as was his documentary on Operation Mincemeat and Double Cross. Recommended.
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Guys, remember this is designed for the general public's consumption. One can find fault in everything if one looks hard enough. What would you prefer a 100% accurate series which would probably be pretty boring to the public and be so expensive to make that there wouldnt be another one or what we have, which quite frankly is way better than 99% of sh1te on the BBC.
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It's been claimed in various sources that RAF Bentwaters is the location used for the aircraft ground scenes.
It's mentioned elsewhere that three Buchons and two Bf 108s all in desert markings were gathered at White Waltham last year for filming a TV series. This would also fit in with when this series was filmed. |
I thought it was riveting and mrs olster and I binge watched the lot over 2 days. As she is normally a Downton Abbey / Strictly kind of gal that took some doing. The writing, filming, acting, direction and music made for a highly entertaining series. Real poignancy when considering the bravery, sacrifice and motivation on show. Also told a fascinating story that needed to be told. I can live with what I perceived to be minor technical inaccuracies and who would have thought an AC/DC sound track would harmonise with the visuals?! A personal anecdote in that my own father was a doctor in the Parachute Regiment during WW2 and met David Stirling after the war. Mildly eccentric was his view, notwithstanding the incredible bravery. He never mentioned Paddy Mayne but good grief what a man. Law graduate, rugby international, boxing champion and 4 DSOs. They don’t make them like that anymore. The juxtaposition between then and now is stark. Fighting brutally for our freedom so that a moron like Matt Hancock can be a celebrity. Great series in my view, hats off to the production team.
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I forgot to mention and a most praiseworthy lack of wokeness and indeed to use a modern phrase in a different arena a ‘net zero’ of wokeness. Plus spectacular use of swearing including the worst word of all banned chez olster. Directing that word combined with his nationality at Paddy Mayne would require balls of steel I would have thought (quote David Irving in the series). However in terms of accuracy I imagine that high level of profanity would have been the lingua franca of the 1940s British army. So well done again.
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Been searching but just can’t find it, there was an obit in the Torygraph in the last 10 years of an Army Officer on Spitfires, awarded a DFC, returned to his Battalion and commanded them in Korea where he was awarded a MC. Whether he was attached/seconded/transferred during his flying career I can’t remember.
Originally Posted by longer ron
(Post 11323915)
Which is why I posted this line :)
But just to add to my earlier post Just some of the Army pilots attached to the RAFin 1943 - |
The book "Churchill's Secret Warriors" is a ripping yarn.
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If you have a serious interest in this subject I strongly recommend reading "Born of the Desert" by Malcolm James Pleydell (the doc). It is written first hand and also in the language of the time. It is the most factually compelling account of the time and the people that I've ever read.
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A minor moan: AC/DC at very loud volumes followed by quieter and muffled audio for the dialogue. OTOH I might be going deaf!
I always thought the LRDG morphed into the SAS, but the series infers otherwise. |
Popski's Prvate Army is a terrific read, and all the better for Peniakov having paved the way in desert navigation.
They did much the same job but the unit did not continue after the war. |
Ralph Bagnold designed the Bagnold Sun Compass for Desert Navigation,the Bagnold sun compass was used by LRDG for Desert Nav.
In the early days of the SAS - the LRDG were used to transport/navigate the SAS on their sorties. |
Thoroughly enjoyed the series, apart from the silly heavy metal/modern music; and I say this as a heavy metal fan!
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The novel A Good Clean Fight by Derek Robinson covers similar territory about the SAS, albeit with a couple of parallel stories about the RAF and the enemy. It is obvious fiction, but I enjoyed the book.
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Originally Posted by Kent Based
(Post 11324291)
It's been claimed in various sources that RAF Bentwaters is the location used for the aircraft ground scenes.
It's mentioned elsewhere that three Buchons and two Bf 108s all in desert markings were gathered at White Waltham last year for filming a TV series. This would also fit in with when this series was filmed. |
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