Lonewolf 50, just WHY do the USN and Mreenkaw-ooh-rah not follow the clear requirements of the DoD FIH with regard to RT calls in emergency situations?

NO EXCUSE - please join the rest of the world!

Nevertheless, whoever flew that C-130 to a successful landing did an outstanding job!

No need to be rude, BEagle, unless being in the RAF makes it compulsory.
I think I understand the logic on that bit of training. (And the reason that I looked it up on line was that it had been ages since I'd seen the book; it's posted on the CNATRA web site).
If not in radar contact (which is how flying was for decades before the ubiquity of radar contact became the norm) then you need to get the attention of anyone listening on the freq by saying Mayday. That gets anyone/everyone listening on the frequ to pay attention to what follows.

If you are already in radar contact, you are already talking to a controller. In that case, it's a briefer transmission simply tell them you have an emergency.

And funnily enough, almost all of the VFR training sorties I flew had a radar following (not radar contact) service in the MoA. The flight students were taught to say Mayday (non radar contact) as a standard transmission when they got that far into the checklist (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). (And if they didn't they'd get marked off for not saying it during the simulated emergency)
Which means that the most common emergency radio call would start with Mayday by reflex, I expect.

I can see the advantage of simply telling the controller you have an emergency if you are already talking to them; it's clearer communication and he's already got you painted on his scope.

I'll defer to Westy on the controller side of that.

Your appeal to pedantry is noted, but we agree on this.
yep.

Forget the AIM for a second... it has been proven time and again that "I'm declaring an emergency" works for US airspace.... seems to work even better than MAYDAY...also the AIM is advisory

I was of the understanding that MAYDAY was to get ATC attention, yes Carl this is an emergency and should not have to be asked, minimise RT between ATC and pilot and clear everyone else off the air. But it appears you are saying a successful comms lacking in misunderstanding constitutes saying whatever you want irrelevant of supporting documentation and if this holds true for an emergency I could not see why it would not hold true in all cases. Meaning we could get rid of all those pages in the relevant doc’s and save a few trees and brain cells?

I do not understand what you are saying? If you have a grip with Aussie's so be it but I suggest you play the ball and not the country.

Finest Kind, have you been drinking? I’m actually not 100% sure of what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that there should be agreed upon SOP’s, heck we could even call them standards, to which I agree. I Also agree that if someone has priority you should take pains not to clutter up the radio. I’ve also been taught (And taught) that if I cant find the perfect standard phrase that clear comms is best.

Re the other stuff, I am saying a single case is a data point. It’s definitely not a trend line, particularly when it was 4 decades ago.

I’m also highlighting that in this particular case, there was a an exchange of clear, and expected phraseology between the aircraft and controller. It communicated the nature of the problem efficiently and without ambiguity. The fact that it is different to what the RAF would do, does not in and of itself make it inferior.

For the record if it was me, I would have said ‘Mayday’ in Australia or the UK, and ‘declaring an Emergency’ in the US. Because that is what the controller was expecting.

That is besides the point - MAYDAY might not work in US airspace if Americans keep pretending that they fly alone, which is another threat. If a professional follows correct procedure as taught widely around the world (including in the US - it was pointed out that the FAA correct R/T is Mayday/Pan-Pan), the colloquial attitude that the US ATC are used to using/hearing will hinder and delay the necessary response as they fail to understand what the word Mayday means.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vhyEXXtyg
Here's a clear example of that - Helicopter calls "Mayday Mayday Mayday" and the ATC response is "Do you require any assistance". Even after another aircraft relayed the callsign and nature of emergency (engine failure). Hearing the words 'Mayday Mayday Mayday' should prime everyone on frequency (especially the controller) to listen clearly to the transmitted information so that pointless repetition of messages isn't required because the controller was focusing on another task or distracted by something.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q
Here's another example of US ATC failing to understand a textbook and professional emergency transmission, following up with unnecessary questions such as "are you declaring and emergency", and to add to the list while we're at it, failing to understand the meaning of "standby".

True dat! On an Aviation forum that shall not be named, two American Part 121 pilots we’re going on about how “Niner” for the number 9 was some comic book pronunciation. When pointed to the specifics of the FAA AIM and how the ICAO phonetic voice was stated said, “I more skimmed over it than read it”. That’s two professionals. But, declaring an emergency is a hardy perennial PPRUNE argument, carry on.

Thank you for your concern about my health. I hope you are well. In response to your "not 100% sure" it appears that you have got 99% of it. There are Doc's, SOPS, AIP's ABC etc, that even America have. It would be nice considering that it appears ICAO, which I think is international, is a way of standardising a lotta different thingies in different countries to an international standard was utilised even in a country that does its own thing but does agree on these standards for everyone else.

In respect to your training and using a non standard phase if you cannot find the correct one or there is not a correct one (interesting) I doubt if anyone would disagree. With MAYDAY my training, so long ago, still resonates, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if memory is in error, as MAYDAY X 3, who I am talking too, who I am, what the "f" is the problem, what I am going to do, where I am, and than how many sugars I want in my coffee. Now I apologise if I am in error with the call but given the time that it has been since being taught and instructing this and now, I am sure I will be forgiven. The point being there is a standard phase.

Your use of MAYDAY in UK or OZ is commendable but something different in the US because that is what they expect even if different from the FAA? is the twist to this thread. If you want something different to what is published than publish something different.

End of the day regardless of terminology used, the message got across, everyone walked away from it and he did a superb landing.

FAA use Mayday btw, see page 96 as an example, but main phraseology is page 231


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ.../media/AIP.pdf



..

Don't shoot the messenger that's just how it is.
​​​​Anyway how many of you say "tree" and "fower"? That's also in the AIM

I have no concerns with the use of military gibberish being used within that civil airspace released to military use/control. That said, I have real concerns when that same military gibberish is used in normal national or international civil airspace. It is professional and safer to use the applicable procedures and communication norms for the airspace in which you are operating.

It is noted also that some civil operators sound like they are chatting away on Childrens Band out in the Baja somewhere instead of employing standard ICAO procedures. As the world knows, if certain things are done a particular way in the US (or France), they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Just ask them.

CC

Crab, when with the USN the standard MAYDAY/PAN applied, nothing else.

NutLoose's page 231 spells it all out, for the controllers their reference says,

FAA Air Traffic Control Policy effective 15 August 2019 The bush lawyers can now argue about the meaning of the word "should", and the why para "c" might exist.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...r/7110.65Y.pdf

They are all wrong. The nav light was actually changed in the first line, so the answer is one.

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the Herc will be salvaged?

Just asked my Bro this, as he has had some experience of recovering derailed trains. Miles of TrackWay to start with (will be needed anyway to truck away the contaminated soil), then cranes to sling lift the wings off after they have been de-fuelled.

And advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out.

May I suggest all the posts concerning emergency RT procedures be moved to a separate thread to leave this one for the specific accident referenced?

Lonewolf 50:-
Indeed Lonewolf, and by being allocated a Mayday c/s every subsequent transmission by you or to you again repeats that message to those same participants! :ok:

The important point I would make is that by having two emergency alerts (MAYDAY, or "I am declaring an emergency") in the US could then lead to confusion outside US airspace where US military crews will be dealing with non-US ATC (even if supplying a radar service) who may not immediately respond to "I am declaring an emergency" as a MAYDAY alert, with vital time being lost before appropriate assistance is given.

Stick to the internationally agreed script no matter where you are and with whom you are dealing and precious time will thus not be lost.

The ATC sounded more nervous than the pilots. The wind direction/speed was the most useful information. ATC should assume, that with two engines gone and working on an engine fire checklist, the crew has its hands/brain full and communicate comes third. So provide useful information and do the emergency stuff like informing the equipment on the nearest airports in the background.
My assumption is, that some single handed piloting would be a good help for ATC to get the other side perspective.

For those interested in the update for the Eglin crash of an F-35A, that post was moved to the F-35 general thread
EDIT TO ADD:
Of interest from that accident is a possible problem with FBW implementation that may or may not be related to this accident.

Not your place to do so. This was an accident concerning two US built aircraft, operated by an arm of the US military operating in US airspace. They don't need your advice in how to conduct their affairs. The successful conclusion of what could have been a multiple fatality accident suggests to me they know what they are doing .

Non standard RT in this situation ? Give them a break , they achieved a perfect result.

Lonewolf50 yes, I know that Megan disagrees with what you claim the USN use.

you say his post then you say so which is it? Use MAYDAY (as the rest of the world does) or have two different procedures depending on if you are VFR or under radar control?

Just remind me, how did they get in that position to need to make a radio call?

RetiredBA/BY , the Department of Defense Flight Information Handbook section A-2 states the correct procedures for US Military aircrew. The fact that some choose not to follow DoD recommendations is a matter for US Stanevals to review.

Just say: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY we're declaring an emergency!
:}

As a Brit, to my fellow Brits. Kindly stop with the grammar police inputs to this thread. The pilot of the 130 did an amazing job, and frankly whether he said "Mayday", "Pan" or "Emergency", he handled things amazingly well. We should all care more about the flying skills than the grammar skills. In this case the pilots of the Herc showed us all how to handle an obviously major emergency. Well done to the entire crew.

Errm... this wasn't "perfect". An aircraft with eight people on board and no inflight emergency egress was damaged to the point where return to an airfield was apparently impossible. Fortunately (by luck) there was some soft level ground in the area.

If anyone can point to where the word "emergency" is a regulatory approved method of declaring your state, military or civil, I'll shout the bar, I do note though the procedures are merely "recommended". As Beags points out it's all spelled out in the Department of Defense Flight Information Handbook section A-2. US Military manual and even the UK gets specific mention. ;) Following correct as of March 2018.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....029d818029.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....02832676f2.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....889d8d0a38.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....74d238a988.png

https://www.columbus.af.mil/Portals/...-14-165719-010

R/T Pedantry Cluster Fandango
 

Reminds me of theologians arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead:=

I look forward to the exploding heads when the first Marine F-35 returns to the Queen Lizzie. “Yank 01 declaring an emergency, headed back to mother“.

8 pages minimum.

Can you give me the average angel shoe size and I'll work it out.

Appreciate that the post has gone off topic but this tends to happen with bones of contention particularly when someone feels threatened even when it is written in black and white i.e. “I don’t care what the rules are we do it our way”

F@cking Tweetle Beetle infestation here....

Very well, then
Mr. Knox, sir.
Let's have a little talk
about tweetle beetles....

What do you know
about tweetle beetles?
well...

When tweetle beetles fight,
it's called
a tweetle beetle battle.

And when they
battle in a puddle,
it's a tweetle
beetle puddle battle.

AND when tweetle beetles
battle with paddles in a puddle,
they call it a tweetle
beetle puddle paddle battle.
AND...

When beetles battle beetles
in a puddle paddle battle
and the beetle battle puddle
is a puddle in a bottle...

...they call this
a tweetle beetle
bottle puddle
paddle battle muddle.
AND...
When beetles
fight these battles
in a bottle
with their paddles
and the bottle's
on a poodle
and the poodle's
eating noodles...

...they call this
a muddle puddle
tweetle poodle
beetle noodle
bottle paddle battle.
AND...

Now wait
a minute
Mr. Socks Fox!

When a fox is
in the bottle where
the tweetle beetls battle
with their paddles
in a puddle on a
noodle-eating poodle.
THIS is what they call...

...a tweetle beetle
noodle poodle bottles
paddled muddled duddled
fuddled wuddled
fox in socks, sir!

Fox in socks,
our game us done, sir.
Thank you for
a lot of fun, sir.

And shortly after making that call the engine vibration he had was the initiation of the rotor disintegrating, the shrapnel of which took out all electrical power. Mother assumes he has a radio malfunction and will be shortly in the circuit, when he doesn't show up SAR is launched but nothing is found. Wreckage in 20,000 feet of water and unable to be located as search area is too vast. 8+ pages. :ok:

Who really gives a sh*t about what was said over the radio!
We should be celebrating the fact that nobody died after two aircraft collided.

gotta luv tweedle beedle battles.
time to jump in my plane (its a jumbo) and fly away (that'll annoy a few)


Must be a lot of stressed out people with too much time on their hands out there if we are more worried about radio phraseology that figuring out why an F35 rammed a Herc. I just what to know what happened.

After a mid air with serious damage and no loss of life its about as perfect as it gets. Think Victor-Buccaneer collision off Sunderland 40 years or so ago, 4 fatalities.

As some have pointed out who gives a damn about RT procedures, the crew brought off a succesful conclusion, no loss of life, to what coukd h ave been catastrophic.

....and its not for Beagle or anyone else, with a similarly self appointed authority or misplaced ego, to start preaching or lecturing to other airforces.

Priorities !

Thought you might find this interesting

oh yes please, let’s go even further off topic

2 or 3 other callsigns chipped in on frequency (I'm sure they were trying to be helpful) during the emergency which, unless you are giving a MAYDAY RELAY call, goes against the idea of keeping the frequency completely clear except for the controller and the aircraft in distress.

The controller has to ask if the aircraft has a further emergency (how many do you need!!?) because he didn't go to full mental arousal prompted by a MAYDAY call?

I will reiterate that the crew did a great job landing the aircraft safely - BUT, they were descending quickly, having to pick a field to crash land into, and still being asked questions by ATC which the simple use of a MAYDAY call would likely have pre-empted.

Anyone coming onto the frequency not having heard the initial declaration of emergency would not have known there was anything going wrong and could easily have blocked transmissions unintentionally - prefixing the aircraft CS with MAYDAY each time, prevents that happening.