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The ejection seats either have a beacon integral to them or are connected to the pilot's beacon (or both) so that the distress signal is broadcast long before the pilot gets to the ground.
Pilots getting out of jets at Valley and forgetting to disconnect frequently set off their beacons and it wasn't unusual to have to hover around the base in a Wessex to locate the guilty Sqn. Equally I ended up hovering outside a hangar in S Wales having homed to a PLB signal that was triggered during maintenance of a Harrier seat. |
Originally Posted by JumpJumpJump
(Post 10897613)
I might say that to my GIB (if so equipped), otherwise, I'm pulling the "handles" and getting out. Let ATC figure it out. Of course, it is always best to transmit as much information to ATC (or whomever) prior to ejection ... if there's enough time.
By the way, I have no experience with ejection seat-equipped aircraft. I'm just a card-carrying coward, and as soon as the idea "eject" entered my brain, I'm outta there. I do, however, have a couple of friends who successfully ejected from stricken aircraft ... one from an F-105 at near M-1. Cheers, Grog Thirty four years ago last month, I had a mid-air and ejected from an A-10. As there was nothing left of my airplane at 500’, I put the priority on pulling handles. Squadron received a phone call with approximate position before lead got ATC to call home base. So, no need to tell ATC, they’ll figure it out. |
You forgot the 1 to post that there is no appostrophe in URLs |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10897663)
The ejection seats either have a beacon integral to them or are connected to the pilot's beacon (or both) so that the distress signal is broadcast long before the pilot gets to the ground.
Pilots getting out of jets at Valley and forgetting to disconnect frequently set off their beacons and it wasn't unusual to have to hover around the base in a Wessex to locate the guilty Sqn. Equally I ended up hovering outside a hangar in S Wales having homed to a PLB signal that was triggered during maintenance of a Harrier seat. I’m shocked to find that many years later; you’re still in hot pursuit of a firm grasp of the irrelevant. “Emergency“. Nice job to the Herc crew. |
Originally Posted by LTCTerry
(Post 10897073)
My dad flew USN F-4s. I recall him describing refueling as closing at some level of minimum thrust and having one engine in burner before being done. Not a lot of performance overlap yet it has worked for 50 years.
Anyhow as I recall it ( Spey engined F-4M, tanking off C-130, generally at low level, "down south"), things like stall margin, lack of power, etc was never an issue, no need for burner or "tabogganing"..During my time on the F-4M I had the pleasure of tanking off the Victor, Vulcan, C-130, KC-135 (with the short hose attachment on the boom) and the VC-10 - the C-130 was the easiest by far IMHO.. The main issue/gotcha with the 130 was obviously (?) being aware that you were dealing with a tanker with a lower IAS than you normally dealt with, so watch the overtake..and if at low level not to stuff a handful of power on if you started were dropping back.. ..because the result could be spectacular... As to the argument over RT ..I really can't get fussed..I spent plenty of years post mil flying into/out of the States - it's their train set and their R/T phraseology is their own, e.g... "position and hold" rather than "line up and wait"...etc..whatever, it all works out.. |
Originally Posted by MightyGem
(Post 10897105)
A bit like this really: :E
How many pilots does it take to change a nav light? 1 to change the nav light and to post that the nav light has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing nav lights and how the nav light could have been changed differently 7 to caution about the dangers of changing nav lights 7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing nav lights 5 to flame the spell checkers 3 to correct spelling/grammar flames 6 to argue over whether it's "navlight" or "nav light" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive 2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "position light" 15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "nav light" is perfectly correct 19 to post that this forum is not about nav lights and to please take this discussion to a navlight forum 11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use nav lights and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 36 to debate which method of changing nav lights is superior, where to buy the best nav lights, what brand of nav lights work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different nav lights 4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes nav lights relevant to this group 13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the nav light controversy 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 13 to say "do a Google search on nav lights before posting questions about nav lights" 1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again. That was a brilliant rant |
Doesn't the Martin Baker Departure Lounge also launch a bunch of chaff, to make a bigger radar splodge?
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Praising the pilot of the Herc, deservedly so, it could all have gone terribly wrong
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ion-with-f-35/ |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 10897460)
Bet California doesn't allow that. There are specialists with kit to do this. You truck all the contaminated ground away to them, where a centrifuge-like machine heats it, mixes it with water, splits it into components, etc and deals with it all. Expensive machine, not used that much, so costs a lot when you do. Charged by the ton. Meanwhile, truck back in fresh soil. Old roadside fuel station sites invariably have petrol and diesel which has leaked from the tanks into the ground below and needs this before you build something else there.
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That was a brilliant rant |
He also missed out the Engineer would have to visit to repair the mess the pilot made of fitting the nav light in the first place. ;)
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Still trying to imagine the sequence of events and actions that resulted in the coming together of these aircraft.
This link is boom AAR as opposed to probe and basket, but if you can manoeuvre an AWACS to avoid a catastrophe, then you should be able to do the same in an F35B I would have thought Control restriction, lose article, sun in eyes ..... |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10897663)
The ejection seats either have a beacon integral to them or are connected to the pilot's beacon (or both) so that the distress signal is broadcast long before the pilot gets to the ground.
Pilots getting out of jets at Valley and forgetting to disconnect frequently set off their beacons and it wasn't unusual to have to hover around the base in a Wessex to locate the guilty Sqn. Equally I ended up hovering outside a hangar in S Wales having homed to a PLB signal that was triggered during maintenance of a Harrier seat. |
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....31de0cf673.jpg
wiggy, no idea who who the F4 crew were. I think the F4 was probably the most photographed a/c from this position on the RAF C130 tanker. |
JPJP - not really understanding the point of your post. I was clarifying the existence of beacons on the seat for a previous poster - is that not allowed by the pprune police?
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Originally Posted by Just This Once...
(Post 10895229)
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Originally Posted by ancientaviator62
(Post 10897942)
wiggy,
no idea who who the F4 crew were. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....59dd226d4e.jpg |
I would think the damage to No1 has been caused by the AAR pod detaching or a prop / pod ground strike during the landing event, it appears to be lying some distance behind the aircraft.. that much out of balance prop damage on a running eng would have resulted in the loss of the prop or engine.. |
Yep, the port drop tank probably ripped off the wing either during the mid air or during the emergency landing...
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Obviously not....
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Originally Posted by Tarnished
(Post 10897914)
Still trying to imagine the sequence of events and actions that resulted in the coming together of these aircraft.
This link is boom AAR as opposed to probe and basket, but if you can manoeuvre an AWACS to avoid a catastrophe, then you should be able to do the same in an F35B I would have thought https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcLiAAVeYhk Control restriction, lose article, sun in eyes ..... |
Originally Posted by Georg1na
(Post 10897162)
"Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention."
I have had one and all I used was a Mayday call. Seemed to work......................:ok: Like MPN11, I was responsible for briefing, in this case, the monthly Upper Heyford Instrument School on UK ATC procedures that included the use of MAYDAY and PAN. The crews' main concern appeared to be the anticipated and associated 'investigation' and paperwork involved in the use of these pre-fixes. Most appeared mightily reassured that that no such bureaucracy existed in the UK - at least not from the ATC side - anyway. A briefing on the UK's D&D system, and that you could upgrade/downgrade/cancel your emergency call, usually drew expressions of relief and confidence too. |
Nicely said, DML ... sadly I never received that feedback. My presentation technique was obviously deficient!
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A very good friend who has significant experience in air refueling an HH-53C from a C-130 wondered if a contributing factor might have been sun angle at 1600 local. I looked up a sun angle calculator and took an easy out by using the data for LAX at that time of day, and the elevation angle is between 18 and 19 degrees. He may have a point, depending on how the join up was being run.
( and if the sun was out ) |
JD, try `NOAA Solar Calculator`,,jus done it for LAX and Phoenix .... 246*az.26*el/Ph... 241*az.30*el LA.. Sunset1815 PH,.. 1839 LA....
As the a/c were at 17000 ft,he could see Thermal,and who wants to tank in IFR anyway.... no better day to pull off a landing like that.... If one looks closely it appears he had some flap,which if selected to 20* ,will give full hyd .pressure to the rudder,and also got full rudder trim,which you definitely need when double asymmetric on one side..it also looks like the stbd. drogue is in the pod,which might indicate it could have been a `hard- hose hit`,a broken probe,and as ``sailvi767` suggests,a load of fuel going down the F35 intake,over the canopy like a car wash...and no wipers... |
Sycamore, I used that site-must have fat fingered one of the inputs. Have to go back there and redo it. Anyway, as to the rest I can see where you are going and I’d guess that some information based on the debriefs will be available soon. Another point I considered is that if the sun was out and bright, the 130 PIC would have set it up so the 35 was looking down sun, not into it.
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Originally Posted by Joe Smith
(Post 10896377)
Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.
"Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions." Glad that you can improve standards in an international environment. Ooops, can you also follow up and amend ICAO ANNEX 10, VOL 2, which differs from your standard, and, while you are at it, please amend ICAO DOC 9432 Section 9, para 9.1.3, it still uses the old apparently not appropriate term 'MAYDAY". Anyway, glad you can help clear up the rest of the world and the FAA's standards to meet your requirements. cheers |
It amazes me that the United States Military still has such a “colonial” attitude towards R/T. The reluctance for a world power to use the Internationally agreed standard is appalling and does lead to misunderstandings around the world.
I recall back in 1978 flying a F4 in Germany when we suffered a major malfunction with a distinct possibility of having to eject. We declared a Mayday and diverted to the closest airfield. All was going well until on long finals to land when there was a off-putting amount of chat on frequency. The American Flight Lead was arguing with ATC that his 4 ship had a range slot and his flight should be given priority over inbound traffic. When ATC explained that Mayday 01 was on long final cleared to land he replied “is Mayday 01 his callsign or does he have some kind of problem?” I could not listen any longer and turned the radio volume fully down and continued to land. This Flight Lead showed a complete lack of understanding of the meaning and use of MAYDAY. In later years I taught at a TFTS in the USA. Even then the students were taught to declare an IFE (In Flight Emergency) instead of Mayday and PAN. My students were all German and so we ensured that they were taught correctly. When will they ever learn? |
I am surprised that no one has commented on how fortunate the F35 pilot was on being able to eject. His canopy must have been very close to being the point of impact on his frame. For this to escape damege one can surmise that a possible scenario was too much overtake followed by a bunt under the Hercules wing with the twin fins being the possible scythes. .
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Originally Posted by Dominator2
(Post 10898472)
It amazes me that the United States Military still has such a “colonial” attitude towards R/T. The reluctance for a world power to use the Internationally agreed standard is appalling and does lead to misunderstandings around the world.
I recall back in 1978 flying a F4 in Germany when we suffered a major malfunction with a distinct possibility of having to eject. We declared a Mayday and diverted to the closest airfield. All was going well until on long finals to land when there was a off-putting amount of chat on frequency. The American Flight Lead was arguing with ATC that his 4 ship had a range slot and his flight should be given priority over inbound traffic. When ATC explained that Mayday 01 was on long final cleared to land he replied “is Mayday 01 his callsign or does he have some kind of problem?” I could not listen any longer and turned the radio volume fully down and continued to land. This Flight Lead showed a complete lack of understanding of the meaning and use of MAYDAY. In later years I taught at a TFTS in the USA. Even then the students were taught to declare an IFE (In Flight Emergency) instead of Mayday and PAN. My students were all German and so we ensured that they were taught correctly. When will they ever learn? In this instance the crew landed a heavily damaged (stricken?) aircraft, from a midair collision, in a field, and had clear, and understood communication with their ATC unit. If there was a miscommunication or confusion I could understand the dilemma... |
Originally Posted by nipva
(Post 10898645)
I am surprised that no one has commented on how fortunate the F35 pilot was on being able to eject. His canopy must have been very close to being the point of impact on his frame. For this to escape damege one can surmise that a possible scenario was too much overtake followed by a bunt under the Hercules wing with the twin fins being the possible scythes. .
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Originally Posted by monkey416
(Post 10898619)
the whole mayday vs declaring an emergency discussion is ridiculous. who cares.
Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.** When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...." *delete/insert colloquialism of choice **for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77. |
I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T!
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I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T! |
During my PPL training in UK in the 60s, whilst flying solo, I had a technical problem. I didn't waffle, I just declared PAN-PAN-PAN and got the immediate assistance a teenager needed ... even if it required someone in the Oxford circuit to land and get an Instructor into the Tower to tell me what to do!
I was relieved, and grateful, for the automatic response from the correct and published R/T call. |
flighthappens,
The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said. There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards. As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell. |
Originally Posted by Dominator2
(Post 10898723)
flighthappens,
The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.
Originally Posted by Dominator2
(Post 10898723)
There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards. As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell. I’ve had the privilege of working with many different communities around the world. They all achieve end effects in different ways. Sometimes it is easier to believe that things may be not wrong, but different. I doubt you are going to get much traction with CSAF telling 42 year old dits on PPrune. Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant. You admit yourself that you don’t know what has caused the coming together, so why the pontification? |
Originally Posted by Downwind.Maddl-Land
(Post 10898687)
These are life-threatening situations being discussed and examined here, with a bleeding obvious Murphy, Gotcha, Swiss-cheese* moment staring the industry in the face.
Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.** When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...." *delete/insert colloquialism of choice **for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77. Flight engineer: Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? [Is he not clear, that Pan American?] Captain: Jawel. [Oh yes. (emphatic)] 12 seconds later: Captain: Oh ****! (sound of collision) |
If the FAA or DoD imposed specific alternative procedures for Emergency or Urgency calls within US airspace that differed from ICAO ones then there would be justification for using such variations. They do not, nor do most other national regulators AFAIK. So what justification is there for the use of such variations? The whole point about standardisation is that whatever one's mother tongue, whatever airspace you are transiting, you will understand what is said to you, and others will understand what you are saying to them. In an emergency this isn't just convenient, it is vital.
The irritation on this side of the pond is when such variations are exported into non-US airspace. We Brits may well irritate with our tendency to idiosyncrasy but we realise that an emergency is no time to start expressing it. You stick to the internationally agreed rules and hope that others do too. I would respectfully suggest that even if it is tolerated within the US, not sticking to those rules is a bad habit to get into. There are parts of the world where your colloquialisms will be misunderstood and the help that could have been forthcoming is lacking for want of a MAYDAY! |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10896988)
I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive.
From Primary training, Mayday is taught as the call you make when declaring an emergency when not in radar contact. The following is from PAT Pub # 764, page 7-19, which reflects Navy/Marine training (CNATRA). I'll let USAF folks speak for themselves. 706. EMERGENCY VOICE REPORTS Emergency voice reports will be made in the IDENTIFICATION, SITUATION, POSITION, AND INTENTION (ISPI) format. In a non-radar environment (VFR, squawking 1200, and not in communications with RDO), emergency reports of an immediate or serious nature are preceded by the word "MAYDAY." Repeating MAYDAY three times is the widely accepted method of clearing the frequency for an emergency voice report. An example of an emergency voice report in a non-radar environment is as follows: "MAYDAY! MAYDAY! MAYDAY! [Call sign], engine failure, approximately 8 miles southeast of Evergreen at 2,500 feet, executing a controlled ejection between Castleberry and five lakes area." In a radar environment (Radar Contact), or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO, standard procedure for a distressed or urgent situation is to declare an emergency. An example of an emergency voice report in a radar environment or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO is as follows: "[Call sign] is declaring an emergency. Chip light, 5 miles east of Brewton at 4,500 feet. Executing a Precautionary Emergency Landing at Brewton." Westy, if you've got further traffic that would be cool, as I recall that you've had some experience on the controller side of this. |
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