Secret RAF flights in the UK
 

Islanders snooping

Only 11 years since this was reported in the Daily Mail. It took another 3 years for the Daily Telegraph to report it :

Daily Telegraph

And only last year there were updates :

Evening Standard

Thank goodness that the Internet access in this country is not censored as it is in other countries and thank goodness for a free press where open and honest discussion isn't stifled by paranoia.

And now it seems that that American military have been deployed inside their own country to do something similar.

But we can't discuss it on a locked thread

It was locked because it went OT discussing the US consitution

Surveillance of a population by its own government (which is happening) is very much part of the topic. Whether that is permissable or desirable are legitimate points of discussion and have been debated by philosophers since before the framing of the Constitution of the USA.

If there are people in this country who want to do us harm, and the security services want to monitor them, fine by me. That's part of us being a free country. The other part is the freedom to make them accountable for their actions.

I agree

Accountable to who? I know it's a bit of a trope, but who does watch the watchmen?

The Intelligence and Security Committee does.

Living close to a sensitive location we do get the occasional islander flight weeks in advance of an event as a rule. These can surely only be of use in specifically defined situations and limited in their ability to collect and store data. Much more to worry about from interception storage and potential rearranging/photoshopping/voice altering your Whats app/Tinder/Gmail/Skype etc etc by the spooks rather than a few islanders poodling around on an import but very focussed specific job I would hava thought.

As for the free but extremely biased press they can be very selective about what and who they complain about but at least they do make a noise from time to time

Good joke. See 'Gerry McCann is happy' on YouTube, taken right infront of the whole of the UK's 'free press'.

About 5 years ago an ex USMC officer who was lecturing (in a non-secret subject) at a major US Uni. told me they told their students to remember than ANYTHING you commit to writing on a PC/phone/Tablet can longer be considered secret or confidential - especially emails

Like it or not we live in a Surveillance Society - sometimes that's good and sometime's that's bad but it is what it is and there is no turning the clock back.

The only answer is to do what the SVR were apparently doing in Moscow - buying a lot of steam driven typewriters................. but then maybe they were on special..........

It was noticeable pre Glasnost that any Soviet aircraft we had in at Farnborough would get a 'visit' by a van labelled 'Currys' or 'Dixons' just prior to its departure and they would deliver dozens of anonymous cardboard boxes to the aircraft.

Crew meals?

Was the same at Ullapool back in the day when the Klondikers came in. A huge truck or two of all manner of consumer goods would be at the dock before the fleet departed.

See "local Hero" - but not just the Russians - I was checking out of a Hotel in Glasgow in the early 90's and a guy came into drop off a Land Rover Defender gearbox for an Icelandair passenger expected in that afternoon for a 4 day stay......................... Th Hotel staff didn't bat an eye-lid - apparently they had a shed round the back especially for Icelandic "deliveries"

Quite. What has been reported in the press is mere speculation. Those who know are those who need to know - no-one else.

Informed speculation, not 'mere'.

The bad guys are well aware of the capabilities of the snoopers, it's just the public who pay for it who are kept in the dark.

In the 70's, it was (very) old second hand cars that covered the decks of eastbound Russian coastal shipping.

I believe in the '60's some Bulgarian ships were being refurbed on Tyneside and went home loaded with upright piano's..............

...and it's even shown in the film Casino, going back to the 70's when the film was set.

If that statement was true, aircraft would be getting shot down regularly in theatre, because the bad guys would know everything about how to score that direct hit.

That doesn't happen so clearly secrecy works. We're all tax payers as citizens, but thankfully most of us would prefer that those putting their skin in the game weren't put at risk by the enemy knowing how they conduct their business.

The theatre for these aircraft is the cities, suburbs and back gardens of the UK. Would you think there to be a distinct in theatre ground threat?

I believe that the Liverpool police helicopter was targeted on the ground, before being moved to a more secure hangarage.

You didn't specify exact capabilities, so I'll admit my response was broad to cover a larger area, but not inaccurate according to the context of your own post. The people being monitored are likely to not be very nice people, who may intend to commit harm to dozens, if not hundreds of innocent people.
It's also reasonable to suspect they are prepared to commit harm to anybody involved in their investigation - or apprehension - to evade the law and avoid justice, to maximise their likelihood of success.

The slightest insight or confirmation in to how the information against them is collected, could change the way in which they operate, which may prevent those on the frontline of preventing atrocities from having the information they require to safely do their job - this is why MI5, MI6, GCHQ, counter terrorist specialist Police and other organisations ;) don't talk about the details of their work. Knowledge is power - information about numbers, intent, weapons, location, etc. can all be collected via the assets being discussed. It's better to let the enemy figure it out on their own.

We sleep comfortably in our beds at night thanks to the incredible men and women in our Police, Security Services and Armed Forces who keep us safe from bad people. How about let's not betray them by talking about their most sensitive kit?

Well, I wouldn't put much faith in the Evening Standard article which cannot distinguish between MI 5 and MI 6, and can't even correctly identify their respective HQs, which is a matter of public record.

The discussion, so far has not included capabilities, only that sophisticated surveillance is being conducted by the security services of it's own population many of whom are ignorant of it happening. The bad guys are well aware that it happens and being aware have probably taken measures to limit their exposure.

Anyone who watches a TV drama, or reads the paper or a crime novel knows a lot about some (but not all) techniques used by the forces of law and order. Remember one of the pieces of evidence that located Osama Bin laden was the fact his house DIDN'T have an internet connection. Even people like Extinction Rebellion now commonly use "burner" phones and VPN

On the Russians, I believe their Shetland tug would pick up Lada spares.

And not just the Russians, the German Navy would raid Currys in Elgin and clear them of cylinder vacuums. They even brought their own crew bus.

Just for the record, getting back on topic, the title of this thread is actually incorrect, as those Islanders are operated by the Army, not the RAF. The Brigadier mentioned is of course in the Army and the only mention of the RAF in the Mail article is that they operate from RAF Northolt.

Transfer to the RAF was also discussed here:

651 Sqn AAC to the RAF

The Northolt Islanders were ostensibly RAF aircraft (CC2s rather than the Army's AL1s and later Defenders), operated by the 'Northolt Station Flight', but as mentioned they have been retired and replaced by contractor operated aircraft, from the same facility. They are not the only 'civil' operated surveillance airraft used in the UK either. Google can tell you more, but there are good operational security reasons for the operators not to comment on them

The Northolt Station Flight Islanders were replaced by civilian contractor Piper Navajos some years ago. Their capabilities are niche and extremely appropriate and relevant for the world today. Happy to see and hear them droning over west London.

And as for those who say; "Those who know are those who need to know - no-one else." I say rubbish. That is worthy of North Korea or East Germany or any other closed, repressive and oppressive Police state. The assets being discussed here are NOT some 1984 Big Brother spy on the people capability, they are a niche and dedicated capability and only a small part of what the security services, GCHQ and the Home Office do to keep us safe.

German BnD has done the same.

They don't exactly hide them, do they? Regularly see ADSB tracks of King Air and Sentinel and to the even vaguely initiated it's pretty obvious what they're doing.

I find it comforting that there are people out there attempting to keep me safe by eavesdropping on potential "bad guys" and maybe thwarting a plot before it even gets under way.

A military looking callsign on a civilian registered aircraft makes it rather obvious.

Bit like those cunningly disguised red letter road signs you use in the UK to for defence establishments...............

Like the 'Works Unit' sign on the M4...

Need to know .................. !

langleybaston,

You sound like some old East German or North Korean.