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651 Sqn AAC to the RAF

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651 Sqn AAC to the RAF

Old 4th Apr 2019, 17:00
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651 Sqn AAC to the RAF

I hear that as of 1 Apr 651 Sqn AAC have been chopped across to the RAF as part of the rationalisation of capabilities between the forces.

I know now this is going to re-open that hoary old question, so I ask with a due sense of dread: the aircrew were brought across with the aeroplanes; have the S/NCO pilots been given commissions or are they now effectively serving on attachment to the RAF for the time being and therefore remain in their Army ranks?

Seems strange that thereís not been more said about this given that effectively the RAF is bolstering itís capability or potentially experimenting with non-commissioned pilots.
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 17:06
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Same army crews for now, with unit personnel to transition over to RAF through regular postings in and out. Being operated 'jointly' currently.

Seems strange that thereís not been more said about this given that effectively the RAF is bolstering itís capability or potentially experimenting with non-commissioned pilots.
Given their role, no one is going to comment much on them at all. I've tried a few times, but no joy alas.
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 18:51
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April 1st you say?
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 19:24
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Those NCO pilots that want to transfer will be offered the chance to train for their Commission. The Aircrewmen similar as NCA. Donít forget that NCO Pilots get the same rate of RRP(F) as Officer Aircrew, so as they are also on pay supplement 4 then NCO Pilots actually work out more expensive than junior officer pilots!
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 19:24
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https://www.janes.com/article/87600/...rom-aac-to-raf
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 19:37
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what I found interesting is that they are to be completely civilian maintained after the transfer.
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 22:34
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Thanks all, may seem a bone question but I'm firmly in the Joint space these days so rarely get to hear much detail about what is going on in the RAF.

Noting LJ's comment, thinking back to my time on IOT (not something I try to remember on a regular basis!) I remember the DS holding our branch choices over us at every slight indiscretion. 'Melchett - you're useless - how do you think you're going to cope in your jet if you can't even get this right?' as we were doing the slow march - which I've never done since - for the 47th time that week. I can't imagine such 'encouragement' finding a receptive audience amongst those SNCO pilots who do decide to transfer to a commission!
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 08:53
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Hmm, Janes not mentioning the fact the CC2s were retired and sold a couple of years ago
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 09:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kebab
https://www.janes.com/article/87600/...rom-aac-to-raf
Hmm, Janes not mentioning the fact the CC2s were retired and sold a couple of years ago
To be fair, Jane's is open-source. If the MoD won't comment on numbers (as the article states) ,then it makes it hard to detail an accurate inventory.

And having said that, the article does note that its figures come from 2016.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 12:23
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I'm surprised that the unit is retaining the 651 numberplate, and hasn't been allocated a more historic RAF squadron number. Unless that is to come.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 15:36
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Originally Posted by Martin the Martian View Post
I'm surprised that the unit is retaining the 651 numberplate, and hasn't been allocated a more historic RAF squadron number. Unless that is to come.
Might be to do with the future of Sentinel? If it leaves service on 2 years time then 5(AC) Sqn would be the perfect choice
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 17:10
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Melchy, plenty of NCO Aircrew going through IOT in the past so Iím sure theyíll have some good one-liners ready!

As for Sqn Numberplate - easy!!!






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Old 5th Apr 2019, 23:35
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Now that Army is out of fixed wing it must be time to move the choppers from the RAF to the Army where they belong! Works for US Army, Australian Army, German Army...
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 00:25
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend View Post
Now that Army is out of fixed wing it must be time to move the choppers from the RAF to the Army where they belong! Works for US Army, Australian Army, German Army...
Laughingly there was some talk in the 80s or toying with giving battlefield helo control including Chinooks and Pumas and Merlin (when it would come in) to the AAC so I read in Paul Beaver's Army Air Corps.

Umm..with the Germans not quite. Under re hash/re org 6/7 years ago...the Luftwaffe for the first time in history took the 50 year old heavy lift capability from the Heeresflieger so CH-53G/GS/GA fleet is under their control. Luftwaffe also operates H145 LUH SOF and AS532UT COugar for VIP out of Berlin Tegel, The ginving up of Heeresflieger assets was an offset deal as the Luftwaffe gave their NH90 TTH i(ntended to replace their legacy UH-1D) plus the UH-1D (including SAR a/c) to the Heeresflieger. So for trrooping, and SAR aid to civilian authorities the Heeresfliger holds that ace with both NH90 TTH and UH-1D. However in saying that the H145M will be replacing the UH-1D SAR (some not all) by 2020/21.

Not affected are the Marineflieger SK and Sea Lynx (bar NH90 NFH Sea Lion replacing the SK and offerings of Wildcat, MH-60R, NH90 NFh to replace the Sea Lynx). Tigre PAH-2 attack helos are not affected nor are the training H135 and Bell 206b (provided by Motorflug GmbH for the necessary art of autorotations). Howver in saying that the Motorflug contract runs out 2020/1 timeframe and so the EC135 need replacing. Last year ADAC Technical Services have contract to provide 5 H135 for flying training at Buckeberg (Internationales Hubschrauberausbildungszentrum) .Cheers
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 05:01
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Now that Army is out of fixed wing it must be time to move the choppers from the RAF to the Army where they belong! Works for US Army, Australian Army, German Army...
The US and Australia are actually the exceptions rather than the norm in this regard. Canada, China, France, Russia and most other major nations (including of course, us) largely have the air force operating battlefield support helicopters.
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 05:28
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Surely you only need to look at how the AAC has fared with Apaches - so that should settle it.

Then again gliders proved too much for the RAF .

And the Navy's inability to maintain their part of the Joint Harrier Wing should count against dark blue.

send them to a European army or air force anyone?
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 07:28
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Iíd have gone across to REME if the chance had presented itself during the 4 1/2 years I spent supporting AAC. For Junior ranks the opportunity for career progression and increase in responsibilities are far greater than in light blue. The ability to perform your primary role at a high level seemed to count for more than how you organised the monthly bingo drive. I did enjoy my SH time as well though, so that probably puts me in a minority..
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 17:08
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No word on helicopters, but I see the Rapiers have gone in the other direction...

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Old 6th Apr 2019, 19:12
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Do keep up 007 - the RAF Regt ceded the Rapier to the Royal Artillery in 2004!
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 19:27
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Now that the British Army is technically below the magic 100,000 for the definition of a “Field Army” is it not time that it stopped doing such a small amount of aviation and concentrated on doing ‘soldiering’ and the support there of? Swapping the RAF Regt for the AAC (roughly the same size) might make sense as long as the Army protect the airfields when required.
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