What rank is "Master Pilot"
 

While flying back from blighty yesterday I got chatting with a dear old thing who said her now sadly passed husband attained the rank of Master Pilot, flying amongst other things Canadair Sabers and Meteors - his name was Pete Foard, perhaps someone here knew of him. I've never heard of that rank before - can anyone school me ?

Master Pilot is a Warrant Officer equivalent. The last one, a Wessex helicopter pilot retired in about 1980. Many Master pilots were fast-tracked commisioned when the goal posts changed. All RAF pilots are commisioned since then; theoretically politically driven by who can be responsible for Nuclear weapons. I dare say the thread will now degenerate into the usual and frequently exercised pros and cons of the need for all RAF pilots being commisioned, as the British Army still has NCO pilots.

A "new" SNCO equivalent rank system for aircrew was used in the RAF between 1946 and 1949. It did not prove successful and only the Master Aircrew rank survives. The link gives a good description of the ranks and rank badges.


NCO Badges - RAF 3_P


http://britairforce.com/images/raf_rank_ac_photo.jpg

There is a book, "I flew with Braddock" who was a Master Pilot on Lancasters. There was also Master Navigators and Master Signallers all epitomizing the pinnacle of professional aircrew.

In 1961 going through my advanced training on Vampires O/C GD suggested that I could be a Sergeant Pilot owing to my dismal OQs score, (wine women and song, etc.). I turned down this offer on a matter of personal pride as my father was an ex NCO pilot who had been commissioned. The Air Force being short of recruits, National Service had just been abolished, they were therefore forced to keep me on as an APO.

I should have taken it up. I would have been paid more, lower mess bills, looser women and I wouldn't have spent servitude as a V force co-pilot. When I left the service they couldn't care a damn what rank I was and judging by SFFP I would have got a better pension.
Such is life.

Tiger Mate gave 1980 as the demise of the last master Pilot, does anyone know when the last Sgt and Flt. Sgt pilots and navigators were?

I can remember Sgt pilots on the Lincolns at Lindholme, 1954-56. A significant number of them were Polish. DFM's were also quite common among them.

Sgt Wop/AEO's were still quite common when I was on Valiant's, 1959-62, but I can only remember one Flt. Sgt navigator at that time.

Yes the Wessex Master Pilot was Taff Walker and he was a lovely man.

He was, Nutty but sometimes his bark was louder than his dog's!

My father was M/Plt David Morton and he resigned from the R.A.F. in 1968 whilst flying Varsity and Hastings at the N.B.S. at R.A.F. Lindholme.
He went on to join S.O.A.F. flying Dakota, Skyvan, and Caribou until 1973.
He often said that M/Plt was the best rank in the R.A.F., and I think the only ground tour he had in the R.A.F. was as part of a Thor crew at Bardney, part of the Hemswell group.
I inherited his logbooks and the types he flew reads like a dream.
At least to me....

Shy,

I do wonder what ever became of him post Bristows, Shula was his dog :)

5aday,

He appears to have had a long and interesting career.

One of my instructors on the Dominie at 1 ANS, RAF Stradishall in 1968 was a Sgt navigator. His previous tour had been on Andovers. There was also a Master Navigator in Command Ops at HQSTC RAF High Wycombe in 1968.

I too flew with Taff Walker on the Wessex at Odiham, and he was a lovely bloke. The only problem was that he was really deaf; if you climbed into the LHS after he had vacated it, the intercom was so loud it blew your head off!

On 47 Sqn at Fairford when we first got the Hercules we had a F/S Nav. This would have been 1968/9.

These days the rank held and recorded on documents, 1250/F90 etc is MACR, Master Aircrew. It has become the generic rank, Master Pilot, Nav, Eng, Sig, AEOp and ALM were all titles that have all now been consigned to history with the advent of the Weapon Systems Officer/Operator and a common Brevet. It has to be said that even though our IDs said MACR most of us still used the titles according to our trade long past the advent of the single Brevet.

As for Taff he was truly a legend and I was lucky enough to both know him and take part in his retirement flypast at Odiham, photos of which having been posted here before.

At Ballykelly, we had three John Wood's on our crew on the Shackleton Mk2.
( I was so junior and I thought my world had come crashing down when I saw the inside of a Shackleton and then I didn't quite understand why 204 sqn put all these Woods on the same crew - but that was explained to me later)
One was a F.Sgt Navigator, one a comissioned AEO, and one a F/Sgt AEop or maybe he was a F/Sgt Signaller.
Although the first John Wood was the junior of the Navigators, the comissioned Nav was often prone to air sickness and vomiting so the N.C.O. nav seemed to take the majority of the responsibility for navigating by jumping around in each of the Nav's seats whenever it was deemed necessary, like Stage 2.
The day I handed back my immersion suit and helmet and drove away from BK and on to Larne and Stranraer and then then down to St. Mawgan for the Nimrod O.C.U. I breathed a huge sigh of relief. But that is another story which involved Headley Court.
This was all circa 1970 with Fg. Off Hunter as the skipper.
Dave M

Wensleydale's link explaining the post war system is very interesting, particularly as it illustrates the badges. In many years of dealing in military insignia I have only ever seen these badges once. I was at a militaria fair in Gloucester and a dealer who specialised in RAF items had a full set for sale, for an eye-watering sum well into the hundreds.

I did once have a 'Palestine 1945-48' GSM which was named 'S2 J.Bloggs, RAF', which puzzled me until I tumbled that the chap was an S2 (sergeant) signaller - again, the only example I have ever seen.

TTN: They come up very occasionally on e-bay and sell for quite big sums which is a pity because I would like a set for the Airfield Heritage Centre that I am involved with....complete sets are well into 3 figures. But if somebody has one that they would like to donate to a current Heritage Centre then pse PM me (he wrote in hope).


I must admit that the rank structure and badges were rubbish! Aircrew 2 had a badge with 3 stars; Aircrew 3 had 2 Stars; and Aircrew 4 had 1 star....meanwhile Aircrew 1 had 3 stars and a crown - clear as mud!!

Many a Master Pilot/Nav/Signaller/etc ended his days in the '60s and '70s in ATC - and damn' fine Controllers they were, too ! There were many Czechs and Poles among them, as I recall.

The "Four-star Brandy" system (as it was derisively dubbed) did not last long and would be long forgotten, were it not for the retention of the Master title as its last remnant.

Danny.

Aircrew Cadets had no Stars just a blank patch.

Ha, Danny42C, I was going to make the same point!

One stupidity was that MACR were allowed to do Approach, but an ATC WO wasn't [although that subsequently changed]. The philosophy seemed to be that [regardless of their aircrew role] they knew more about aviation than a full-time ATC SNCO/WO. How they therefore allowed us baby Direct Entry POs to control aircraft remain a mystery :)

I served beside a number of them and a few had WWII experience. Never a dull shift in a quiet tower listening to their tales and banter. One character who sticks in my mind was "Butch" Bellamy, sadly no longer with us.

Fareastdriver ... the Javelins' rapid move was clearly in people's minds when, at the end of that decade, the ability rapidly to reinforce the Far East was planned and exercised. Exercise BERSATU PADU, which I sadly missed as I was tourex by then, must have been 'rather interesting'.

MPN11,
No mystery - we were yesterday's men and our time was up. The baby ATCs and pilots (lads and lasses) coming along had to learn (I hope we looked after you ! *), and there's only one way to do that - in at the deep end !

Spare no sympathy for pilots. They are all born with a strong built-in sense of self preservation (otherwise they should not be pilots and will not survive for long as such). In any case, they are spoon-fed by ATC to an extent which we earlier generations can only marvel at.

Note *: the later meteoric careers of some who passed through my hands are a constant satisfaction to me - not that I claim any causal connection, you understand.

Danny.

Another such was M/Plt Norman Gunnel (Luqa ATC) whilst working Malta Zone and who managed to stop a BA Trident from starting engines for London until I was on board. (About a 30 minute delay as I had miscalculated my time in the bar ( and the No 1 Hostie at the time is now my wife of 42 years). She wanted to close the doors as she thought I was just meeting her for a coffee in the terminal and didn't know I had a ticket and I was tourex. After the second bottle of Krug she proposed to me - just as the wheels went down for 27R at LHR.
Thank you Norman - wherever you are............you were a star.

My dad was a master pilot. He remustered to radio/radar fitter but still wore there rank and wings which caused much confusion.

sitigeltfel (your #20),
I always said that every ATC Tower should have at least one old "hairy" in Post. Then when the New Duty Instructors started shooting their lines (to impress our baby Controllers, particularly those of the smaller, shaplier and sweeter-smelling variety), we could chip in with: "Come off it, Sonny ! I was roaring round the skies when you were crapping in your nappy ! I've Been There, Done That - and I'm not having any of your old bull round here !"

Danny.

MPN11,

Of course ! I'd put my reply to FED on this - the wrong - Thread. Fixed It.

Thanks nevertheless !

Danny.

M Plt Jackson at the Towers in the mid 60s, and two FS QFIs but I recall one going off for a couple of weeks and coming back a fg off, I think the other did too - both on 1 Sqn at Cranwell.

MNav "Junior" Rainville still appears in one of my Argosy log books in 1971.

There was a Master Pilot teaching ground school at Linton On Ouse in 1982, but I can not remember his name.

MM

There was a Master Pilot Blackwell in ATC at RAF Manston. I think he was still there when I left in September 1982. I believe that he had flown Spitfires, Vampires and Hunters.

He once chewed me out for pronouncing Schedule the American way. I never did that again! I also recall he was an Arsenal fan.

ISTR a Master AEo at Scampton, or was he a MEng? on 230?

It was a while ago, 1980, thats my excuse.

PM

Out of Trim, my late father knew a Master Pilot 'Blacky' Blackwell at Butterworth (Malaya) in 55/56. He often spoke of a flight with him in a Vampire T11. We often wondered what had become of 'Blacky'. Or maybe there was more than one.

Master Pilot Jack Meakin of Brize ATC in the mid 1970s.

Ex-Javelin I believe?

OMG ... Aussie MPlt "Black Jack" Meachin, my mentor on my first tour at Strubby (65-67)? Same one?? Or another??

Built like a small house, permanent 5 o'clock shadow? Can't remember whether he was DFC or DFM ... but he was an A/sqn ldr on Typhoons in WW2, and after the war was deemed unsuitable to be an officer. He reenlisted as a sgt plt, and made MPlt. He just loved us baby plt offs, straight out of Shawbury!

Cracking good tutor, though, and a hard but fair bloke as one would expect! Once we kids had made the grade, he was a great colleague. Cock up, and ... well, he was an Aussie professional!!

There was a Master Pilot at West Drayton in 83/84, can't for the life of me remember his name but he worked in LATCC(Mil) somewhere iirc.

My dad was a NCO pilot during WW2 flew as aircraft commander in Lancaster's for two years and was lucky to survive.
After he had completed his two toures he was transferred into the US Army Air force to assist and help with the coming invasion of France. This gave him a chance to as he said give some pay back.
As a young chap early 20,s who had had the **** shot at him over France and Germany he had at last the opportunity to give some payback.
The US Army Air force trained and gave him a Mustang plus two wing men and a open page, KILL GERMAN airman and ground troops and equipment. They were very successful and I had some of his gun camera film and it was very interesting.

His final input into WW2 was flying transports bringing our our chaps back home.

After the end of WW2 he did not fly again and did not volunteer any info to me. it was only after his death that I was able to put his amaising history together.

Master Pilot Gus Beveridge worked at LATCC Mil. He was on South Sqn 1985/6.

That sounds familiar.

outhouse ... transfer from RAF to USAAC/USAAF sounds quite incredible, let alone the transfer from RAF Heavy Bombers to USAAF Mustang flight leader. I suspect a slightly inflated family history, unless you have any documentation to prove that.


Ex-ATCO/ATCAs ... there were hundreds of them!! Bless them ... highly valued mentors to ATCOs and ATCAs alike.

One, I do not have to verify any comments I have made.
Two, I am rather pist that you would suspect that my father would not have not done what was a mater of military record. having both British and US decorations.
Three, During WW2 a lot of **** happens that was maybe in the present times, rather strange to you. Most of these chaps are now dead maybe its best they are.
Having spent two years myself in the US military and a secondment in Vietnam in sixty, six flying a Huey may be you would like to question my providence.

Over to you what have you done??

I think the second to last Master Pilot still active/flying was Alec Riddoch at Shawbury where he was the Unit Test Pilot on Gazelles and Whirlwinds - I think he retired in 79/80?