Herod,

M Plt Anderson was also one of my two regular instructors at Syerston in 62/63; the other was M/Plt Hollings. Very different characters but, in their own ways, great instructors.

I maintained the Link trainer at RAF Oakington and my boss (who was the instructor))was Master pilot Al Boyes.Perfect gentleman nearly always gave me Thursdays of for a long wkend!!!

You mean L T Springate AFM now retired as Flt Lt.

Old Duffer

At Brize Norton in the mid-1970s there was Master Pilot Jack Meakin in ATC and he was the Watch Supervisor irrespective of what Ken Burton the actual aged flight lieutenant and actual ATC supervisor said.
In the Brize Flight Planning room was Master Navigator "Ness" Edwards whose real first name I never found out, he was Ness to everyone including the Station Commander and in an adjacent room to Ness Edwards were two absolutely delightful elderly gentlemen, one of whom was a Master Signaller who's name I cant remember and another was a Master AEO who's nickname was "Harry Chunkers" for some unfathomed reason.

Master Pilot: How it All Came About.

During the War, the bulk of RAF aircrew were promoted to Sergeant when they got their aircrew wings. If they lasted one year, they got to F/Sgt. If they lasted two years (not many did) they became Warrant Officers.

But there had always been a bit of muttering about this in the Sergean's Messes from Ground Trade sergeants. You could see their point of view. They had sweated their guts out and kept their noses clean for maybe 15 years to reach the rank kudos and (comparitive) luxury of the Sgt's Mess. And here were these kids with perhaps six month's service getting it all on a plate ? 'Tain't right !

Postwar, the Air House sympathised. How would it be if we still let these parvenus into the Sgt's Mess, but made it clear that that they were not "proper" Sgts at all, but just aircrew allowed into the Mess in recognition of their pay scales and skilled status ?

Worth a try ! The "Four-star Brandy" scheme was introduced (in 1947 ?). I may be a bit wrong in detail, but I think tha aircrew Sgts became Pilot 3 (P3); F/Sgts=P2 and they did not have a P1 - he became a "Master", and wore the barathea uniform of a Warrant Officer. As for the "star" badges, I've forgotten, but you can (or could) get it all on Google.

After two or three years, this idea had become the butt of so much hilarity and general derision that the Air House turned tail, and went back to the wartime system. But face must not be lost, one facet of the 4-Star business was kept. The Masters did not go back to Warrant Officer, but remained Masters ! So now you had Master aircrew, F/Sgts and Sgts again, until all the "old Hairies" were finally pensioned off in the sixties), and only young gentlemen were allowed to be Pilots and Navs now (but other aircrew categories were still recruited from the "scruffs").

Many of these old boys in later years gravitated into ATC, which in any case had been invented after the war as a "Sunset Home" for them.

Sneer ? Not at all - this is from an old Sgt/Pilot who was two weeks overdue for his "crown" before he was commissioned - but never did get the money (or the crown !)

Hope that clears it up.

You would probably have made more money if you had got , and kept, your "crown".

Did Master Aircrew receive a warrant? And if so, were they in fact warrant officers with a distinctive appointment/job title?

I ask because the army have had since 1881 warrant officers [the over-arching RANK] with a myriad of APPOINTMENTS such as conductor, master gunner, schoolmaster, bandmaster, RSM etc etc.
In the RAF, how was seniority determined if if push came to shove.?

DC10RM

The Master Signaller could well have been Buzz Stoner. He went on Britannia global trainers to teach us young copilots how to flight plan and do the comms around the world (and how to survive out there!). A true gent who moved over to Lyneham to run the radio logs cell in the early 80s. I repaid him by taking him around the world on a Hercules.

Fonsini. Flight Sergeant Foard was an instructor at 6FTS Acklington and he conducted my final nav test on the JP in 1965

FED (#129),

True - had I remained in UK on UK pay scales. But I was commissioned in India, and the Government of India took over the responsibility of paying the Officers of the Raj properly. My pay as a Pilot Officer (Rs500 /month) was, at Rs14/£ more than double the UK rate. And it went up the ranks.in proportion. We lived like Lords (or would've done if there had been anything to spend the money on).

A Sgt (or any Other. Rank) was only paid the rupee equivalent of his UK pay. - "One Law for the Rich ........... ?"

Same as me MPN11, in the ATC I was Cadet Warrant Officer and Drum Major, had a battle Dress Tunic for each function sporting appropriate rank badges.

Originally posted by OXENOS
Horace Gallop

That´s the man, thanks.:ok:

Danny, the badges for that system are highly sought after by collectors of RAF memorabilia. I was at a collectors' fair in Gloucester around 25 years ago and I saw a set on sale for well over £100 - goodness knows what they would fetch now, that is the only set I have ever seen and in 30 plus years of dealing I never had so much as a single badge pass through my hands. I did once buy a GSM with the post-war Palestine 1945-48 clasp, which was named to an "S2 R.A.F." This puzzled me until I realised it was to a Signaller 2 (flight sergeant equivalent). Again, a very scarce item, as very few medals were named using this system, other than GSMs with that clasp and LS&GCs

the answers to your questions are yes, and yes. Master Pilots (and Master Navs, etc) were as much warrant officers as those in ground trades. As such I can see no reason why they would not receive a warrant, although in truth I have never actually seen one.

As a former Master Air Loadmaster the urban myth that we were not proper Warrant Officers is just a myth. I have a certificate appointing me a Warrant Officer 'In her Majesty's Royal Air Force'.
The actual certificate is slightly smaller than my later commission certificate.

Masters certainly were 'real' WOs! One of our M Eng was on some course or other at some pongo establishment and went into the bar for a pre-dinner drink....

He was told that he couldn't be served until the CSM was in the bar. This didn't go down too well with a rather thirsty 'Caring Ken, the airman's friend', who told the barman that he outranked the WO2 CSM and would like a beer, please. So the barman obliged...

Enter the CSM, who was clearly perplexed by this breach of pongo protocol. But on meeting Ken, they discovered that each had the same militaristic view of life and they got on very well with each other, went into dinner and propped up the bar later until closing time!

Master Pilots
 

Please correct me if wrong, but wasn't there a Master pilot at Wattisham late 60's on the Lightning TFF who had got somehow got through the system?

Cliver...

And from 1951 to 1964 there were Master Technician's. A rank above a W.O..
MT 'Timber' Wood was on 214 Sqdn to my knowledge, from Feb 59 and was still there as a W.O. when I returned in Oct 64, 7 months after the demise of the rank.

I had a similar situation when we used to do our airdrop courses at Nicosia. We took some of the resident garrison flying and made sure that the RSM was especially well looked after. As a result I was given the honour of 'opening' the bar if we were there before him. I made sure that this was not abused and always bought him his first drink when he arrived.

See Post #32/33 ... we seemed to have had 2 x MPlt Jack Meachin/Meakin in ATC :)

Thank you. May I attempt a summary for agreement/ disagreement/ comment.?

The Army had WO I and WO II from 1915, filling a myriad of appointments with varied pay rates and job titles according to perceived worth/ responsibility.
Presumably the RAF briefly had both grades after founding in 1918 but ceased to promote to WO II and dropped the rank [when?]
Since then the RAF has Warrant Officers [all ranking with army WO I according to date of promotion] with various titles which include the MACR cohort, all ranking with each other according to date of promotion and paid variously according to perceived worth.
There is and never has been an RAF rank superior to WO and junior to commissioned rank, unlike [on dangerous ground here] the RN, who may have/ had some ranks in between .........

The RN had some incredibly convoluted WO rank arrangements. I have tried [and largely failed] to absorb some of the detail in this rather tiresome web-page ... THE ROYAL NAVY WARRANT OFFICER PART ONE

The basic 'badges' Wiki makes passing mention of 'Commissioned warrant Officer", though ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_..._rank_insignia

Not strictly true.

The rank of Master Tech was a promotion and a pay increase from W.O.

At the introduction of the 'New Trade Structure' in 1951, a W.O. was required to pass a trade test and have the time qualification of 20 years from qualifying for Junior Tech or its equivalent.
The time qualification was reduced in later years.

The M.T.'s that became W.O.'s in 1964, at least were not 'overtaken' by their juniors; as were the former Flt. Sgt's that had passed their trade test, done the time qualification, and were promoted to Ch. Tech before 1st April 1964. That day they discovered that they were junior to all Flt. Sgt's.

The Commissioned Warrant Officers wore a single thin Lace 'Bootlace'(similar to Sub Lt - but a little thinner).
Or at least they did by WW2 - it is more complicated than that of course :)

Some interesting stuff here!
Spent 35 plus years in blue, the last 19 as MACR - as someone pointed out, the best rank in the RAF! Had to refuse two commissioning opportunities to stay there! (would have meant a pay cut, so no contest!) Unusual for rank and trade in having lower case cfs on my Air Force List entry. 'Ness' Edwards was one of my operators in the 10 Sim at Brize - we had worked together previously in the late, lamented Transport Command. Service experience was littered with Masters of all types. 'Bim' Ward, John Loveridge, Jack Huntingdon, 'Knobby' Clark, Jock Riddoch, Leo Penczek et al. Knobby was my introduction to the mysteries of the hover in the Whirly 10, Bim Ward demo'ed both Chipmunk and Single Pin. I think I saw a mention of M/P Morton - I believe it was his son who pitched up at Brize in a twin light turbo -'Queen', 'Duchess'?? and kindly showed me around while reminiscing about his dad. Going from blue at Brize to civvies at BA was an eye-opener, finance enhancer and a startling indication of how staff CAN be looked after!

Both John and Jack were forced to learn how to eat with knife and fork as they became F/O's.....much to their disdain. I recall being Jolly Jacks F/E on Hastings at Changi when, on a training pre-flight I nudged the elevator with my shoulder and immediately grounded the A/C because of slack elevator hinge bolts.
Jack came running across the tarmac, swearing at me for screwing-up the morning training program, He always got picked-up outside Sqn HQ as it was beneath his dignity to do the full start-checks etc.
However...when I demonstrated the fault.....He hugged me. It appeared a great friend of his had died because the F/E had ignored this well-known part of a pre-flight. Thereafter, we became buddies and we did all the planned tricky flights to exotic places in the southern Philippines.

Much later Johnny Loveridge and I used to sit side by side for hours in the original VC10 Flight Sim...we were both F/Lts then and instructed in the Sim. I seem to recall MAEOp Edwards was our consul operator.....but wasn't he also known as Taff?

Flew with (then) F/Sgt Loveridge in TG554 4th Aug 1953. Remarkably smooth landing he made at Lyneham, never forgotten.

One of our knockers, FS, was promoted to MACR. He was taken aside by one Me M......... to be inducted into the rank and the responsibilities associated with warrant rank. Almost like being inducted into masonry, he was quite subdued afterwards.

'Jolly Jack' once showed me a photo taken of him in front of a Spitfire ( IIRC ) around the end of WW2, exclaiming " Ee I were a handsome b'stard then " - as he was a pilot trapper on ASCEU, I resisted the temptation to say you've never been handsome Jack. By the way it's HuntingTon.

Dear old 'Ness' never did quite get to grips with the coming of the VC10K to Brize...

One afternoon I went in to collect a route bag for some AAR trail or other leaving in the keep-Cyprus-happy early hours, only to find that my carefully requested diversion TAPs hadn't been included. As I roamed about trying to find the right documents, 'Ness' asked what I was doing.

"Getting the TAPs and FLIPs I'd requested your staff to supply", I replied.

To which he looked down (or rather, round) his nose and sniffily responded in rather a haughty manner "A 10 Squadron co-pilot would have been in yesterday to check the route bags".

"Quite possibly. But unlike me, he probably wouldn't have spent most of yesterday chasing Russians!" came my rejoinder.

I don't think he really ever forgave the RAF for binning Transport Command some 25 or so years earlier - or for using VC10s for such ungentlemanly activity as tanking. But such attitudes were quite common at Brize at the time.

Quite right too.

RAF Transport Command and BOAC should have been the only users of the VC10.
Refuelling probes and grey camouflage are so common!

Any one remember Mstr.Plt. Adamek and Flt Sgt.Harry Dyde, instructors and IREs on the Vampire at Linton, 1962 ? I was going through on RN FW course No.102 in those days before clearing to Lossiemouth after “Wings”. I’m afraid I don’t know any more as the meetings were transient.