Too right. Decades of work building a Just Culture down the pan.

Correction - replace 'may' with 'will'

Interesting to compare to the Vulcan's barrel roll and the CAA's (lack of) action!

I think in any military flight safety investigation the best plan is to refuse to say anything and lawyer-up asap. Failing to cooperate with a unit or service inquiry runs less risk than this.

Presumably this will go to the appeals court so plenty more dirty washing to be aired.

Just culture looks after people who have made mistakes. AT's actions were negligent, plain and simple so, I don't think it's unfair for the RAF to have removed him from his role.

Owning up to your own negligence does not make it any less serious. Personally, I think it's right that he has gone; he almost killed 200 people through complacency and negligence. I very much doubt that there is an airline out there that would have let him keep his job.

Might want to brush up on your legal skills dude. Usually when you plead guilty ain't much to appeal about.

As difficult as it might be to accept, I think the above covers it.

In another life, I was an RAF SFSO and it's my understanding that the no-blame reporting NEVER meant that if there was a gross breach of trust/competence et al that no action would be taken merely because it was reported honestly.

I believe one or two of you are getting it rather mixed up.

This particular case has attracted huge interest outside the RAF. The aircraft commander admitted his (gross) error of judgement. I'm sad that someone who has done so much good has suffered this, however it began and ended with HIS actions alone.

Only one pilot strapped in, nobody else in control and he was so bored he lost SA to this degree. If the board did not take action THEY not him would be castigated for not bearing their responsibility seriously.

No winners here - we'll see the court cases next . . .

I dont think the blame can be appprtioned the the captain alone. For instance, why the co pilot out of the flightdeck so long? He's being hailed as some kind of God in some forums. Yet I believe a little of the blame could rest on him. There's also clearly cultural issues going on here too.

I believe according to the CM rules we can appeal the sentence.

In my opinion the sentence is harsh. Negligence yes. Gross negligence no.

My legal skills are rather weak, but stronger than some it seams.

He can appeal his sentence, just like everyone else in his position.

#788
I think that just about sums it up.

I can't help but be reminded of Victor Hugo's A Fight With A Cannon, though that had a far more drastic outcome.

In any case, I wish well for all involved in this unfortunate incident.

Here's some guidance on appealing the sentencing for the sea lawyers here:

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont...rt-martial.pdf

So, does the dismissal mean that he will get an 'immediate pension' plus the lump sum?

As I've been corrected before here, I think you mean 'get hanged anyway'. ;)

From Blazing Saddles (1974):

There are ways to tell that she's a witch...burn her anyway.
 

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/HG-witchscene.php

Reporting Culture - Lost.
Just Culture - Non existent. (Back to the 1990s).

Not sure where we go from here?

Is Air Safety a priority or not? Most Safety "Risks to Life" are related to medical issues and operating vehicles (Land Traffic Accidents).

All that work trying to build elements of a safety culture lost overnight.

We will never have a proactive safety culture (mostly pathological, reactive at best).

"If" he'd been found guilty of lying, then I get it. Otherwise, this sends out the wrong message (but clearly not for everyone).

It's a "Crimson Tide" moment. I see and understand the arguments from both sides; however, this isn't really about cameras on a flight deck any more, it's about application of the FAiR Model. I still don't see how that was applied correctly, but what do I know....🙄 (Only those that are trained are allowed to use it anyway, don't believe me, read the regulations).

Would any of you admit to making a mistake again and report it because you trust the system?

It's going to be a difficult few weeks I expect.

😐

PS. He's just human, not a criminal. I know it was an awful experience for everyone down the back and they will feel that "justice" has been served. A Just Culture? Lost forever I expect.

"IT'S A FAIR COP" (Witch).

M1key et al.

I suspect this is viewed very differently by most outside the multi-engined world (are you an ME guy?). I am a FJ guy with no experience of ME flying. I have also never flown on a Voyager but have been a passenger on many other ME types.

You and several others speak of a just culture gone forever. Maybe that is the general consensus within the ME world but I don't know of anyone in my world that feels that way. I don't know the pilot concerned and I'm sure he's a great guy but I think others have summed it up well. His negligence cannot go unpunished.

Some have tried to compare his actions to FJ incidents (the Cranwell Hawk for instance). Maybe I'm being precious or you may think I'm acting superior but when guys make mistakes in the FJ world they tend to be under very different pressures and operating in a very different way. I don't think it is possible to make direct comparisons with punishments (or lack of) handed down to a FJ pilot and the punishment in this case. They also do not have passengers.

I can empathise with the boredom experienced by ME pilots on a long flight but as a mere passenger I would expect there is always someone who is fully engaged with flying/monitoring the aircraft.

Despite the rules against carriage of cameras (in their current guise they only came in relatively recently - coincidence?!). I wouldn't have a problem with someone taking photos whilst someone else is with him (I have seen many cockpit photos on FB from airline pilots) but doing it whilst alone on the flight deck seems (to my FJ brain) a little silly.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and despite how others feel this incident would not affect my decision to openly and honestly report an error. As we are always told a just culture is not a punishment free culture. That concept doesn't alter the way I do my job any more now than it did before the verdict was delivered.

BV

BV, I agree. In my world (civilian AOC) we have clear protocols to follow when a pilot is left alone in the cockpit. In the simplest terms this encourages the pilot to concentrate on operating the aircraft, not taking photos.

Should he have been kicked-out? I don't know, but I am sure that my company would have given me a P45 if I had done the same.

Just Culture
 

Those on here who believe that just culture will die as a result of this CM verdict don't understand, imho, the process. If the SI is ever proven to be, as suggested on here, less than 100 % subjective, we would have to look at this again but, as it stands, I think the JC system worked. It's a two way process... Punish mistakes and people won't report. Fail to punish negligence... a small minority will start cutting corners. On the fleet I'm on, the reporting culture is strong and I don't see how this CM will change that. We use the system as an invaluable method of highlighting issues. It's all down to the guys having confidence of their OC and of those above him/her. If that trust is in place, the system runs on rails.

If somebody is able to accurately place AT's actions into the 'error' or 'system induced violation' brackets, I'll stand corrected. Sadly, as I read it, its blatant negligence and had to be dealt with as such. As previously stated, his own actions brought him to this sad conclusion.

Somebody mentioned the Vulcan barrel roll going unpunished. Was that event ever proven? I only saw some random photographs. Perhaps there was insufficient proof.

In a recent interview Dr Plemming admitted the aircraft had been rolled and even named the handling pilots at the time saying that they had both regretted their actions.....

The disproportionate severity of this iniquitous sentence is truly shocking. I sincerely hope that the case will go to appeal.

Thank you for the kind comments of those who've contacted me - I will try to pass them on to Andy.

tubby linton asked who had provided the initial TR training. I am told it was Thomas Cook Airlines. However, when that was and what levels of refresher theoretical knowledge training and simulator sessions were given since then, I do not know. The MoD spokeswoman stated that training had been reviewed - as the lawyers acting for the injured will no doubt wish to know, specifically what training and why did it need to be reviewed.

- What SOP was in place concerning one pilot off the flight deck? Was it followed?

- Why did the co-pilot spend so long making a cup of tea and "chatting with an old mate"?

- What guidance existed regarding the placing of objects on the sill panels?

From British Forces News:
As Lushington knows very well, AirTanker costs the taxpayer at least £1M per day, whether their rented aircraft fly or not. This is a consequence of the absurd PFI contract. Thus the true figure is probably the cost of damage to the aeroplane and for the civilian charters.

As others have stated, the severity of this sentence will simply ensure that no-one ever cooperates with a service inquiry without the presence of a solicitor. Errors and mistakes will go unreported, putting back Flight Safety (or is that now 'Air' Safety') several decades.

After his Bf109G accident, ACM Sir John Allison told us that he recognised that "People do make mistakes - I did", but that flagrant disregard for rules wouldn't be tolerated. Quite right too. But on this occasion, there was no flagrant disregard of rules and no intent to cause danger and distress. Andy was cleared of any accusation concerning his integrity, so when he said that he didn't know what caused the event, he was speaking the truth.

As someone said to me last night, "This is MoD being vindictive - we couldn't get him on perjury, so we'll give him the sentence he would have received if we'd won our case over the other charges".

It might have cost MoD around £1M plus the costs of this case, but when the lawyers acting for the injured lay into them, it'll undoubtedly cost them a whole lot more.

Every time I fly on an airliner these days, the safety brief mentions that turbulence can occur at any time, so whenever you are seated, you should keep your seatbelt loosely fastened. Does the RAF brief the same?

Pure Pursuit, you make an interesting point at #797.
Just Culture involves the reporting of events or activity which could identify safety improvement, and assumes that the individual(s) involved knew of the contributing factors, and thus consciously understood what occurred at the time.
In this incident the 'cause' appears to have been deduced with hindsight, and thus an individual's contribution has been constructed - most probable cause.
From an individual viewpoint there was no 'error' to report, only the event, best described and investigated in technical terms, thus does not involve the process of Just Culture. Even so the close association with Just Culture will be very damaging.

The admission of 'error' was after the choice of legal activity.
In civilian terms this would be a separate process involving the law of the land, but in military terms, the investigation, choice of action, and legal process are all under the same umbrella. This is what 'we' sign-up for in the Military, but in return there is an exchange of trust involving fairness and proportionality.
This incident has challenged that trust, the loss of which may be far more damaging than apparently not promoting a Just Culture.

Beagle I know you have a personal connection with the pilot in this case. I have to agree however as an outsider looking in, it seems that someone had decided that whatever happened at the CM this man was going to get 'nailed'. The whole point of the CM was surely to try the chap regarding his integrity. No one disputed the fact that he had been negligent in leaving the camera where he did.

BV thanks for your insight into the difference between the workload of the FJ pilot and the ME one. My contention in my comment was meant to highlight what I found strange in that the cost of this incident was almost used as a stick to beat this chap with in the CM.