Couple of bad spellingz above, but won't let me log in to edit, sorry!

As i,m not in the air force can some one please shed some light on this , As far as i can make out this "retention payment" is ment to keep skilled aircrew in the air force and has been payed to commisioned flight engineers but not to NCO flight engineers , both types of FE do the same job with the same skill tests at the same intervals.

So why dont the air force want to keep the NCO,s ? and why dont you lot take HMG to court over this blatent job discrimination ?.

A and C. . Unfortunately life in her majesties finest is never quite that simple. To take our lords and masters to court we would have to leave the service and suffer the hardship of loss of earnings etc. We would somehow have to fund such a case and bearing in mind the time taken to prove the short comings of the Mk2 Chinnok at the "Mull" what chance have anyone have of surviving to see a result!!

We are the last bastions, spelling?, of the class society and we have 3 very differant tiers. Those in the upper strata, in my experiance over the last 27 years, always do better than us mere mortals when it comes to pay and perks and whilst it sucks that's how life is in the mob.

So whilst those around me discuss rather tactfully.....NOT their new boxters reduced mortgages etc I have to wonder how 3% is somehow going to improve my lot. Still no retention problem with us muckers eh! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I have great sympathy with the points made here. I think one of the worst aspects of the Pay Review etc is that RAF NCO aircrew will not be allowed to join PA spine and gain enhanced pension. The reason the scheme will have so many increments/levels is to allow RM/Army NCO PILOTS to join. Perhaps their Lords and Masters care about them.

Let's face it, even though the Pilot\Nav mafia run the RAF for themselves, ignoring mere pondlife like us Airman Aircrew types (not GD, therefore Professional Aircrew!), the whole cr@ppy lot is funded by bean counters at the Treasury. Until morale, dedication, loyalty, etc. appear on their balance sheets, they won't give a stuff if they can reduce their final balance figures to appease their bosses. They just cannot see the knock-on effects their penny-pinching will have on other balance sheets.. .For want of a nail, etc.

As a small aside, a visiting Aussie crew had a great badge - A picture of a bird having a bat stuffed up its cloaca (look it up!) and the word "BOHICA". Bend Over, Here It Comes Again...

On the of subject the blatant bollox that is the WSOp advert, there are a couple of covert Maritime references. The E-3 guy is trained in radar and sonar (the latter training very useful on the E-3!) and it refers to "patrolling the Atlantic from the Arctic to the Azores." Either I've missed something about their role or that's one hell of a racetrack to fly.

. .To save money for officers' PRI, the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off. What you see is a train coming the other way!

Well I'm glad to say that I made the right decision last summer. PVR'd after feeling undervalued, fed up of being sh*t upon, lack of promotion prospects, Hierarchy that do not give a hoot about those serving beneath them and are all too willing to blame those below them to save thier own ar**'s. Overstretched, family not happy with service life, still young enough to take up a second career in my early 40's. So I'm out soon, and from what I hear, a few others will be following.. .Best of luck to all who decide to leave and to those who decide to see it through. You never know, those of us that do leave may increase your promotion prospects and get you a FRI.

Kindest regards to all AA

The Gen.

I see our lord and masters are sending round some divvy from PMA to appease the NCO Aircrew world. Are they totally naive to the fact ( Or just plain stupid ) that we don't really care what the bloke has to say. At the end of the day it will all end up like usual: The pilot/nav mafia will be laughing all the way to the bank whilst the rest of us will be Proffessional Shelf stackers at Tesco's.

. .Actions speak louder than words.. .SHOW US THE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Capt Radar - if you utter such nonsense at the forthcoming briefing you will do the AA cause no good whatsoever. Furthermore, do not think that this is a quiet corner of the web where you can vent your frustrations without fear of damaging a carefully considered response by the AA doing their best to represent your interests.

DP Harvey: Where else are we going to vent our frustrations ? For years now we have been under valued as skilled and highly proffessional individuals, our needs and wants seem to have been ignored and since the latest AFPRB a few weeks ago, a resentment has grown that will only damage Officer and AA relations.. .How many times over the years have we heard that a review is taking place the findings of which to be published soon ????? Too many I think !!!!!. .Can we truely believe that this time will be different ?????. .My previous comments may have been a bit harsh and I'm helping out with CONSTUCTIVE CRITISM but I honestly believe that we as AA are about to lose some of our best and most highly skilled in the next few years. This is in fact quite understandable.

Put it like this.. .How many people do you know would stay in a job ( which I believe to be the best in the airforce). .where they feel their skills, knowledge and hard work are not really appreciated until they have the Queens commission ??. .Answer: Not alot !!!!!!!!!!!!!

CR your 2nd post does you more credit. Please don't misunderstand me; I believe the AA have a strong case for treatment on a par with our fellow aviators. There are some very objective and factual issues that need attention. Emotive responses, although displaying sincerity, do not necessarily carry much weight.

The review team must now be convinced to examine the AA in more depth. Their recent proposals have quite reasonably been targetted at the most vunerable area of aircrew manning: pilots. I don't think any of us can argue with that specific outcome. However, the GD(rearcrew) package is questionable at best. Now that they have dealt with the officers, we need to guide them towards the AA problems, in a mature and diplomatic manner. How do you suggest to an air officer that he got it wrong and then convince him to rethink?

Interesting times lie ahead.

DP Harvey. .I believe the Air Officer won't really admit he's made a mistake until it's too late.. .The biggest bone of contention is the Proffessional Aviator catagory. This really was the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Not only was there a considerable cash retention offer, but now they have a catagory which will in the end, increase their pensions. Why not offer that particular part to ALL AA. . .One more point that has been mentioned in recent meetings. Why is it that we have AA and Officers all on the same aircraft, but on different rates of flying pay ?? Surely this needs to be addressed at some point in the precedings. Why are we all not on the same basic rate. It may be Okay for the fast jet world, but it should be EQUAL in the multi-engine / rotary world.. .Unfortuately I see this trend continuing and the gap between AA and Officer flying pay getting greater rather than getting on an even keel.

Lets hope that they AA retention review is not just a smoke screen to fob us off and hope we forget about it. If it is, then in a few years time, THEY WILL be forced into reviewing,what will be, a retention problem within AA.

As Geoff Hoon recently said " Our armed forces are stretched to the limit " Being appreciated goes a long way and makes all the extra detatchments that we will no doubt get involved in, a bit more bearable.

Hate to say this boys but our pilot retention problem will not be solved by this. Neither will the RECRUITING problem suffered by the AA element. For those that dont know we also have a shortage of avionic technicians and this will almost certainly become a RECRUITING problem too, that way no money will be needed.Unfortunately increasing recruitment (if you can get the right standard and quantity) does not put the experience back overnight. Lets face it we all have a choice and post 11/9 things on the outside are slowly starting to pick up. After 23 years plus I will be glad to get away form what the beancounters have done to our beloved force. Just hope someone sees sense before its too late.

-------------------------------------------------

Its dificult to soar with eagles when you work with turkeys!

Captain Radar

Do you have any info about a PMA visit to AA? Are they visiting everyone, or more like normal, just the hubs?

On the subject of FP, this was supposed to be addressed by the Additional Pay Review, but that's now been delayed until 2004. Supposedly too complex and difficult to administer. Now, does that surprise you!!!

retard,. .A Wg Cdr pilot, with weekly feedback to AMP, through AMP's Chief of Staff, is currently touring the RAF as an info medium between us, the ARR team and the AMP.

He seems to be a straight, no nonsense, type. He is now well aware of the issues raised by the AA.

You ought to know that an AA study group is being set up, with an AEOp rep and an ALM rep. The study group IS TO report its findings this Summer. No Eng rep, although it might happen.

Whilst the AA review team has to report by the summer, we won't know the outcome until next year. I joined the mob in 89 so just missed the down banding era (authough it obviously affect me too) but I have been through all the other reviews. My fist reaction was "right another review, whats the point it's always the same result". But after a few pints and a proper think about it, I really do think we should give this review our best shot. We always moan but do very little (well I do anyway), but I believe this is a real opportunity to shout and be heard. My only question is should we go it as individuals or mob handed. Maybe the Aeop Forum (if thats the correct name) being setup at HMP Kinloss would be the best combined voice. It would also have to take into account AA in sunnier areas as well. We,ve only got 4 months to get all our grievances accross.. .On a lighter note, I hope the Pilot who came to deliver the news of the review got a hard time in Kinloss. Their was only a handful of us at Waddo (usual brief when all the A/C were away, and over lunch)

I am not optimistic about a review that is going to sort our problems out. They have known about a problem for years, they have said wonderful things to appease us but it still comes to nothing.

FP has nothing to do with Flying, it is a means of targeting retention, PMAs words when asked why AA were on a diferent scale to O's. If FP becomes part of our pension can they take it away on a wim, which has to be the next big hurdle we will have to face!

Is HMP K and Lossie going to be given Isolated base status as people at Lossie were told a few years ago! This apparently allows LOA and Travel warrants to be paid, a nice compensation for living so far! Imagine the conversation with a new recruit to AEOp, yes you will spend a large percentage of your career in the back of beyond, but you get an extra £500pm for being there! Not so bad then! Ah well I'm dreaming once again!

Best wishes to everyone at HMP, I here you're all working even harder thn when I was there! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Hey, the Canadian Forces are offereing between $10,000-$20,000 for recruits in certain trades. Thats a sign-up bonus.

LionAA,

The Aeop Forum you refer to came into existance a number of years ago. After the findings of last AFPRB report that put us AEOps' into the higher band, its work was deemed to have been done. Obviously we were not expecting the kick in the teeth that followed quite so soon.

Thankfully, many of the original big hitters from our side are still around, and have picked up the gauntlet once again (They just love a good scrap!). Obviously they cant promise anything as they dont control the puppets in the ministry, but what they will do is put across our (All AA trades) grievances in a clear well thought out way.

As has been said in this and other forums, we do not need mad rantings and ramblings, but a proffesional approach (which our lords and masters obviously think we are not capable of!) to try to solve these problems.

Keep an eye out in these forums for more updates as and when they happen

Many thanks for the info. Lets hope we get what we deserve.

The Wg Cdr who came to HMP Kinloss seemed a good bloke - very down to earth.

He re-iterated the fact that whilst he understood our anger, our emotions had to be checked in order for him to file a cohesive report back to PMA.

As a matter of fact, there are those in the upper echelons who did NOT want ALL officer aircrew to be included in the retention package. Just FJ types...

Having suffered direct hits from downbanding, loss of reserve rights on (early) merit promotion and now having to watch reserved rights guys get promoted/signed to 55 anyway, I can only hope that us "cold war" AEOps are at last going to get some bl**dy fair play.

A generous remuneration package, pensionable flying pay, career structure beyond MAEOp & restoration of reserved rights will keep me in to 55 - otherwise s*d MRA4, NGR & civvy street here I come.

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: covec ]</p>