SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???
 

Firstly I want to point out that I'm not going to whinge about all the FRI's (or whatever they're called ) awarded to Officer Aircrew, but the lack of, well, anything really on offer to us.

I'm well aware that it's been admitted there is a vast shortage of people, and it will be investigated.... but when???? As Seak1ng points out in another thread, the AEOp branch in particular is way short on manpower. The ALM's were dealt a blow by not being in the higher pay tier last year, and now this! It is what we all call a Shaftin'!!!

When will the problems be addressed? Are they being investigated 'fully' at the moment? I see know evidence of this and fear the problem may get worse.

We're informed the main problem is with recruitment and not retention, well this isn't going to help keep experienced guys in to help soften the blow of the recruictment shortfalls is it!

Rant over (for now)

RETENTION INCENTIVES FOR NON-OFFICER AIRCREW ARE INDEED BEING FORMULATED!

Sorry to shout, but please rest assured that you are NOT being shafted. They simply can't do everything at once and this first announcement is to target areas where manning levels are the most critical!

Sandy Crevice you get my vote, BEagle you are an ass.

BEagle

substantiate 'most critical'. Facts please.

Beag's,

Don't start singing the party line fella,

They must have known for months that they weren't going to include us as promised, so why didn't they have the spine to tell us?

They are taking the pi33 and deserve to be left in the lurch.

Sandy,. .Agree with your concerns.(see my post on aircrew retention).. .The work of the AIRCREW (not just critical area PILOTS) RRWG is "complete"! The Def Management Board has merely directed single services to "action" the non-remuneration issues identified. The situation for NCO Aircrew (RAF / RN) is by inference known to the working group. Reveal all..soonest!!

Muff C

If so why this:

Armed Forces’. .Pay Review Body. .Thirty-First Report 2002. .Chairman: The Rt. Hon. Baroness Dean. .of Thornton-le-Fylde

. .“Finally, MOD told us that, while the remuneration package was not suitable to address shortages of RAF NCO aircrew, non-remuneration management action was being taken to address those shortfalls.”

“Firstly, the remuneration proposals do not apply to NCO aircrew who are in short supply. We have asked MOD to explain how its “non-financial management action” will address those shortages.”

I do not believe that there will be any financial incentives for us SNCO Aircrew. I think it was said in the brief that the rearcrew types would be appeased by the non remuneration package. I don't know about you guys but, my quality of life is pretty good however, my remuneration is not compared to my civvy counterparts.

I want my total salary package, as professional aircrew, paid to include what was the flying pay element. Now that the precedence has been set AND I want a couple of decent bungs, just like everyone else.

AND PRETTY DAMN QUICK

I have a feeling that the birds in the tree that I'm barking up have finaly dropped their best.

Cheaps,

My point exactly..the truth is out there...somewhere!!. .AFPRB statement challenges the MOD et al the ARRWG for a response.. .Connect my post on BEagle thread on report findings.

Well said GB! And while they're at it, maybe they could stop pi$$ing around, sort out the manning problem and then I won't spend the next 18 months "filling in" on other crews as well as my own crew commitments, thereby reducing my quality of life!!!

Rant No. 2 over (for now)

Oh... and another thing!!

The terms 'Career Aviator' and 'Proffessional Aircrew' sound like they apply more to SNCO aircrew who spend most of their careers on a flying tour. We all know how many spec aircrew are on ground tours and still get the 'xtra dosh!!

"...non-remuneration management action blah blah blah"

F*ck all flying pay, ALMs on the low band if they work hard and get promoted and now this sh*t.

They think we're c*nts and they're treating us like c*nts. South west trains have the right idea. Everybody out!

HP

I do, for a change, agree with you. Maybe a mass PVR might galvanise opinion at higher echelons - prob not methinks. Tis a shame we have been rolled over again, maybe after the disaster that will be 2002 has subsided, we might be afforded proper consideration, ho ho ho. When the SNCO force is 30 to 40 per cent undermanned, then they may listen. I can but dream.... I fly with a 12 man crew now (vice 13), which is rubbish, due to undermanning. Ho hum, aircrew means Pilots, two winged master race, better accept it, eh ?

"Never have so many been so undervalued by so few", it is a shame however that it will bite us in the ass before them.

Gents when they changed the goal posts regarding time promotion, there was big talk of mass pvr and no action. You have again been shafted with a red hot poker and the wheels do not give 2 tosses. ALM FS & MACR being on the low band is nothing short of a disgrace, but as sure as SH live in sh17 whilst harrier mates get 5*s you are slave labour. ....and the ONLY thing that will make this change is when CAA rulings on carrying pax off shore change and or Police Aviation open up to crewmen (Read ALM)/ sensor ops (read AEOp).. .Now I wonder if Air Atlantic want any crews? There are many ATPLs held by SNCO aircrew, and their time will come very shortly, especially if a large percentage of front enders accept the bribe. Any decisions regarding SNCO aircrew that would be constructive would have been voiced today, so your airships you know the phrase......and the donkey you rode in on!!!

T_M <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Tiger I’m right with you. The front line shortage in AEOp and AirSig branches is well above all but fast jet pilot and nav problems but we are told by our AEOs that ‘we feel your pain’ while they watch us fill the holes for flights and Sims. Meanwhile the world is awash with AEOs and group two Navs soon to have thirty K!! Well that’s life! Special sauce sir?

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: circle kay ]</p>

Last year the Air Eng posters visited all the bases where the aircraft still have a three man flight deck. They explained that with delays bringing aircraft into service that we will be required to continue flying for longer than they thought. Come 2008 there will be a vast shortage of air engs unless some of us agree to extend our contracts. With this sort of treatment, the air force knows what it can do with it's extensions of service. Why stay with an employer who does not value the role you play. As allows, the officers have looked after themselves with the knowlage that the knockers will do as they are told. Nothing ever changes.

I was under the misguided opinion that the only problem with GD rearcrew was that there were too many of them. If there is such a retention problem with them, why are the limited vacancies for commissioning each year oversubscribed by 10 times as many applicants?

Beagle, if you honestly believe the b******s about SNCO Aircrew being looked at over the next year for retention bonuses, then you are more naive than my two year old.. .If any money ever reaches my pocket, then I will be first to apologise. Until then, I think we have more chance of 42(R) doing SAR!

Pilgrim, I know only a handful of identities on this forum. Two I have no idea about are yourself and BEagle. I read the threads avidly and can say that BEagle's replies are always very constructive or very funny and often both. Yours on the otherhand...

I see your reply as being nothing short of immature.

Must be AA.

"Undermanned", "underpaid", "undervalued". You've just summed up nearly every trade (air and ground) in the RAF!. Welcome to the real world. As I once heard a 1 star say, "If you don't like it, get out!". My 22 is approaching rapidly, time to go!.

Ralf W. As an avid reader of these threads, I am sure you are aware that this is another very emotive issue that people are passionate about. Your comment linking immaturity to being Airman Aircrew lowers yourself to the same accusation, and adds nothing to the debate. People in glass houses etc etc

I have never seen a thread have such a massive response. There are a lot of angry people out there, and quite rightly so. Feeling valued is part of our make up as human beings and when we think no-one gives a sh*t about us it is wrong, but this goes for most of the RAF. I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it?. . . This latest pile of poo from the airships is just one in a long line, with regards to pay, conditions, etc. The RAF is on the slippery slope to becoming a third rate air force (small a.f.). The airships only care about kit. "Eurofighter, isn't it wonderful". If there is no-one left to fly/maintain it then it's just a lump of metal taking up space in a HAS. People must come first. It's a pity that no one in the ivory tower realises it.. . There, I feel much better for that!.

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

retard rearcrew I couldn't agree with what you said more. There is no AEO retention problem, no AEO recruitment problem, the RAF has AEOs coming out of it's ears.... and yet, they qualify for the FRI!!!! Barmy? Maybe. Double Standards? YES!!

I hate to say it but bluntie has made a good point in that "I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it" ..Well our lords & masters realise that and budget on the fact that most of us can't afford to do it anyway. The only protest I can see at the moment (cos shouting & whingeing does squat) is for the AA world to put their commissioning papers in en-masse and when asked the question of why do want commissioning just say you want the bonuses and you want to be treated as proper aircrew.

Did I spell whingeing correctly?

Unfortunately, I suspect that there will be more disappointment to come. The only way that the non-remuneration package will “appease” NCO aircrew will be to drastically improve quality of life. Whether you are Maritime, SH, AT or SAR, the only way to do this is by a massive increase in personnel, to reduce workload. To increase crews you need recruit more, but also stem the tide of those leaving. Sounds like a retention problem to me!! Anyway, I’m sure they’ve looked at the numbers of those due to complete 22 yrs in the next 5 or 6 years (the product of the recruiting blitz in the early 80’s). “

Problem? What problem?!” said the Ostrich, his voice muffled by the sand.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

I'm with the Blunt one on this. He, and those above him are well aware that the NCO Aircrew cadre are going to stay exactly where they are.. .Lets face it, after the ethnic cleansing of the Air Eng's is complete and the smoke screen of the brevet change and new aircraft has cleared there is going to be a further period of unrest whilst the dust settles from all the influx and eflux of personnel. We are talking about TEN YEARS minimum here and whatever happens in the interim I'm positive they DO NOT care about. We will be made to muddle through and as always it will be hailed as a resounding success.

There many things wrong with the Airforce of today but none so serious as the blatant disregard for the welfare of the rank and file by those that rule. I personally am sick of the empty platitudes handed down by upper management who believe everything they are told simply because it was uttered by an Airship at some nebulous meeting they attended down south.

Well boys, I think we've all got the smell of this one and its going to make great fertiliser.

Truely the ALM has been shafted again, but without the mass PVR little is going to change. It is a pilot run airforce and we are the lower end of the food chain, none of us are indispensible and any shortfall of crews will be filled, Rock ape second LM's on Chinook etc. may become a reality.

I feel that some sort of cohesive action is needed, but let's take some note of the recent ALM pay debacle. A lot of angry people let off a lot of steam in forums such as this, and it did them more harm than good. A considered and structured approach is needed on several fronts, displaying a united cadre of NCO aircrew, reguardless of rank, trade or current role.

Ranting and table thumping will lose us support. We must present a reasoned and calm argument if we are to gain any credability at all.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

Netto: Weak, readable.. .Jim: Spot on!. .R2: Absolutely right!. .750: "Lower end of the food chain" - Yes, but we normally get left a few crumbs!!

This FRI announcement has angered a lot of AA and has helped me with my next "career" decision!!. .JR.

Its no use blaming "their Airships" for even with rings all the way to their elbows, they still have to do as they're told. As the men in uniform become fewer and fewer, the men in grey suits increase exponentially. The declining amounts of money that the taxpayer forks out for defence goes to pay for more and more Civil "Servants" in the MOD. When it comes to the pinch, those at the bottom of the pile always get pinched hardest, in the Aircrew world, its the SNCOs who are at the bottom and dip out on the goodies.

I handed my own blue suit in years ago when I mistakenly thought that civil aviation valued my abilities and training more than the Royal Air Force; but I'd put in my time and repaid the nation for my free training, so I left without rancour. Its sad to see that the defence cuts that ravaged the armed forces in my own time have continued unabated ever since and it never ceases to amaze me that, despite all the discouragement, our armed forces are able to maintain such high levels of efficiency and morale. I hear what you're saying and I understand the situation perfectly, but don't for one moment imagine that its any different on the outside in civil aviation. The same shirkers that want you to defend them for free also want to fly to Ibiza for next to nothing as well. Low cost airlines are mushrooming even as the armed forces shrink.

But don't think that nobody appreciates you, I for one am very grateful for the efforts of all ranks in all services, but I'm sorry - you'll never get a penny from me. I stopped paying tax twenty years ago.

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

Blackie

Good point, but how can you say we're feeling the pinch when there's £100,000 up for grabs for any Tom, Dick or Harriet (as long as they live in Rodney Hall.) We as a nation are supposedly diverting all our spare cash into Health and Education with none available for Defence. Well that's fine; unpalatable, but so be it. When we're then told that millions of pounds have suddenly become available for white collar workers only, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. I'm not greedy. I get paid a decent enough wage. But as was said earlier on these pages, if there's a piece of the action, why am I getting none of it? As I reach for the Gen App do I apply for a commission or PVR? There's going to be a stampede for both. I have the honour to refer to the fact that I haven't made my mind up yet but I really can't see much point in being SNCO Aircrew. It's a shame, but I'm tired of being undervalued and treated like a tw@t when other guys on the aircraft get paid bucket-loads for putting their long-johns on the right way round.

I agree that most AA wont PVR, so it seem that the only way to be heard is for everyone to tick the box in the 7500 for applications for comissioning. I'm sure that OASC would love to hear the real reason that most people want comissioned, to stop being at the bottom of the food chain and get a better pension. (Could maybe even get the higher rate of flying pay at the same point as the officers, i'm sure the EO movement could make something out of that. Its one thing being paid less but to have to wait a longer time for the Middle or High rate seems like discrimination to me.) Maybe then they'd realise that there has been a bit of figure fudging when it comes to retention. Surely retention means to be retained in that trade and not doing another job in the RAF.

Anyone tried to get hold of a desk Officer at PMA today. Seems like they're keeping a low profile, or just planning a holiday now they are suddenly awash with cash!

Still, I just left a message, with reference to the 5 yr plan we'd recently discussed ("...that would really help me out if you'd do that!!!). It read "Sorry, but now I won't be around for another 5 yrs."

The voice of that ostrich just doesn't get any clearer.

Having read all the good words that the airforce has said about how there is a shortage of pilots and navs(is that just until the introduction of Euro fighter, Herc J MR4 etc)but it's only a recruitment problem with the AA and been on the recieving end of the officer only retention package I am confussed. What is a non-renumeration retention package, is this a free pen, watch or prehaps a free PVR form. What is going on and when will the powers to be realise that AA have a brain and you can only be shafted so many times.. .If you think a poster blitz and a web site will smooth over hard cash then think again. All we wanted was a few quid just like the AEO's so that parity was maintained, but that in a fantasy world not the RAF.

If anyone has read the gobbledegook brochure that came out the day after this very fair, and well thought out piece of morale crushing b*llox, then there is a paragraph which asks why these Rearcrew "o"s get the deal but us unter menschen dinnae.. . Answer-to maintain commonality across the officer aircrew types-(or words to that effect). Funny but if you look at a few of our AT/AAR chum Sqns Down South then you will find on more than one Sqn that there are 2+ O's filling FS/Sgts Pics, however they are deemed to be retention risk. Where is the commonality in that when, if there were enough non-comms around, the Sgt/FS that would eventually fill one of these O pics when he retires to Monte Carloetc, will not get the same deal even though he is replacing him one for one!. .Resigned to the fact now but as far as doing anything but my job, well to quote another infamous Airship,"They have sowed the wind-Now they must be prepared to Reap the whirlwind"

Ps.Watch out when MRA4 goes down the swanny.A bit of panic me thinx....

Hope your prediction bout MRA4 is way off the mark, as I see it as my ticket out of this mans Air Farce.

Look on the bright side at least B aerospace will pay you well before and after they shaft you, but think of the medals. In the end the airforce downunder (hush my lips) will take the under valued yet well trained chaps the airships cast aside. Go Aussie Go Aussie etc what retention problems

This really is a sad thread. So many people with so much disappointment. Were we the real niave ones if we believed all that "....across the board" propaganda?

Once more sold down the Swanny, just like AEOp downbanding, Terms of Service, reserved rights, not being re-engaged to 55 unless you accept promotion, Pay 2000 for ALM's, revised flying pay (now deffered to 2004), Sar paramedic Pay.

Enough said?

Airman Aircrew, RIP

Sandy Crevice, or any other takers,

If you are interested in an idea being floated around, email me with a contact address.

Don't get Mad, just join a gang, then get mad!!!

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>