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-   -   SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted??? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/39232-snco-aircrew-shafted.html)

bluntie 30th Jan 2002 18:14

"Undermanned", "underpaid", "undervalued". You've just summed up nearly every trade (air and ground) in the RAF!. Welcome to the real world. As I once heard a 1 star say, "If you don't like it, get out!". My 22 is approaching rapidly, time to go!.

ttthompson 30th Jan 2002 18:21

Ralf W. As an avid reader of these threads, I am sure you are aware that this is another very emotive issue that people are passionate about. Your comment linking immaturity to being Airman Aircrew lowers yourself to the same accusation, and adds nothing to the debate. People in glass houses etc etc

bluntie 30th Jan 2002 18:33

I have never seen a thread have such a massive response. There are a lot of angry people out there, and quite rightly so. Feeling valued is part of our make up as human beings and when we think no-one gives a sh*t about us it is wrong, but this goes for most of the RAF. I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it?. . . This latest pile of poo from the airships is just one in a long line, with regards to pay, conditions, etc. The RAF is on the slippery slope to becoming a third rate air force (small a.f.). The airships only care about kit. "Eurofighter, isn't it wonderful". If there is no-one left to fly/maintain it then it's just a lump of metal taking up space in a HAS. People must come first. It's a pity that no one in the ivory tower realises it.. . There, I feel much better for that!.

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

SandyCrevice 30th Jan 2002 20:26

retard rearcrew I couldn't agree with what you said more. There is no AEO retention problem, no AEO recruitment problem, the RAF has AEOs coming out of it's ears.... and yet, they qualify for the FRI!!!! Barmy? Maybe. Double Standards? YES!!

Spence 30th Jan 2002 20:55

I hate to say it but bluntie has made a good point in that "I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it" ..Well our lords & masters realise that and budget on the fact that most of us can't afford to do it anyway. The only protest I can see at the moment (cos shouting & whingeing does squat) is for the AA world to put their commissioning papers in en-masse and when asked the question of why do want commissioning just say you want the bonuses and you want to be treated as proper aircrew.

Did I spell whingeing correctly?

ttthompson 30th Jan 2002 22:02

Unfortunately, I suspect that there will be more disappointment to come. The only way that the non-remuneration package will “appease” NCO aircrew will be to drastically improve quality of life. Whether you are Maritime, SH, AT or SAR, the only way to do this is by a massive increase in personnel, to reduce workload. To increase crews you need recruit more, but also stem the tide of those leaving. Sounds like a retention problem to me!! Anyway, I’m sure they’ve looked at the numbers of those due to complete 22 yrs in the next 5 or 6 years (the product of the recruiting blitz in the early 80’s). “

Problem? What problem?!” said the Ostrich, his voice muffled by the sand.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

JimNich 31st Jan 2002 00:19

I'm with the Blunt one on this. He, and those above him are well aware that the NCO Aircrew cadre are going to stay exactly where they are.. .Lets face it, after the ethnic cleansing of the Air Eng's is complete and the smoke screen of the brevet change and new aircraft has cleared there is going to be a further period of unrest whilst the dust settles from all the influx and eflux of personnel. We are talking about TEN YEARS minimum here and whatever happens in the interim I'm positive they DO NOT care about. We will be made to muddle through and as always it will be hailed as a resounding success.

There many things wrong with the Airforce of today but none so serious as the blatant disregard for the welfare of the rank and file by those that rule. I personally am sick of the empty platitudes handed down by upper management who believe everything they are told simply because it was uttered by an Airship at some nebulous meeting they attended down south.

Well boys, I think we've all got the smell of this one and its going to make great fertiliser.

750commando 31st Jan 2002 00:30

Truely the ALM has been shafted again, but without the mass PVR little is going to change. It is a pilot run airforce and we are the lower end of the food chain, none of us are indispensible and any shortfall of crews will be filled, Rock ape second LM's on Chinook etc. may become a reality.

ttthompson 31st Jan 2002 00:33

I feel that some sort of cohesive action is needed, but let's take some note of the recent ALM pay debacle. A lot of angry people let off a lot of steam in forums such as this, and it did them more harm than good. A considered and structured approach is needed on several fronts, displaying a united cadre of NCO aircrew, reguardless of rank, trade or current role.

Ranting and table thumping will lose us support. We must present a reasoned and calm argument if we are to gain any credability at all.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

Judge Rembrandt 31st Jan 2002 04:04

Netto: Weak, readable.. .Jim: Spot on!. .R2: Absolutely right!. .750: "Lower end of the food chain" - Yes, but we normally get left a few crumbs!!

This FRI announcement has angered a lot of AA and has helped me with my next "career" decision!!. .JR.

Blacksheep 31st Jan 2002 09:17

Its no use blaming "their Airships" for even with rings all the way to their elbows, they still have to do as they're told. As the men in uniform become fewer and fewer, the men in grey suits increase exponentially. The declining amounts of money that the taxpayer forks out for defence goes to pay for more and more Civil "Servants" in the MOD. When it comes to the pinch, those at the bottom of the pile always get pinched hardest, in the Aircrew world, its the SNCOs who are at the bottom and dip out on the goodies.

I handed my own blue suit in years ago when I mistakenly thought that civil aviation valued my abilities and training more than the Royal Air Force; but I'd put in my time and repaid the nation for my free training, so I left without rancour. Its sad to see that the defence cuts that ravaged the armed forces in my own time have continued unabated ever since and it never ceases to amaze me that, despite all the discouragement, our armed forces are able to maintain such high levels of efficiency and morale. I hear what you're saying and I understand the situation perfectly, but don't for one moment imagine that its any different on the outside in civil aviation. The same shirkers that want you to defend them for free also want to fly to Ibiza for next to nothing as well. Low cost airlines are mushrooming even as the armed forces shrink.

But don't think that nobody appreciates you, I for one am very grateful for the efforts of all ranks in all services, but I'm sorry - you'll never get a penny from me. I stopped paying tax twenty years ago.

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

Hengist Pod 31st Jan 2002 12:17

Blackie

Good point, but how can you say we're feeling the pinch when there's £100,000 up for grabs for any Tom, Dick or Harriet (as long as they live in Rodney Hall.) We as a nation are supposedly diverting all our spare cash into Health and Education with none available for Defence. Well that's fine; unpalatable, but so be it. When we're then told that millions of pounds have suddenly become available for white collar workers only, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. I'm not greedy. I get paid a decent enough wage. But as was said earlier on these pages, if there's a piece of the action, why am I getting none of it? As I reach for the Gen App do I apply for a commission or PVR? There's going to be a stampede for both. I have the honour to refer to the fact that I haven't made my mind up yet but I really can't see much point in being SNCO Aircrew. It's a shame, but I'm tired of being undervalued and treated like a tw@t when other guys on the aircraft get paid bucket-loads for putting their long-johns on the right way round.

Hoots 31st Jan 2002 23:02

I agree that most AA wont PVR, so it seem that the only way to be heard is for everyone to tick the box in the 7500 for applications for comissioning. I'm sure that OASC would love to hear the real reason that most people want comissioned, to stop being at the bottom of the food chain and get a better pension. (Could maybe even get the higher rate of flying pay at the same point as the officers, i'm sure the EO movement could make something out of that. Its one thing being paid less but to have to wait a longer time for the Middle or High rate seems like discrimination to me.) Maybe then they'd realise that there has been a bit of figure fudging when it comes to retention. Surely retention means to be retained in that trade and not doing another job in the RAF.

ttthompson 31st Jan 2002 23:02

Anyone tried to get hold of a desk Officer at PMA today. Seems like they're keeping a low profile, or just planning a holiday now they are suddenly awash with cash!

Still, I just left a message, with reference to the 5 yr plan we'd recently discussed ("...that would really help me out if you'd do that!!!). It read "Sorry, but now I won't be around for another 5 yrs."

The voice of that ostrich just doesn't get any clearer.

BADGER _LOOSE 1st Feb 2002 00:47

Having read all the good words that the airforce has said about how there is a shortage of pilots and navs(is that just until the introduction of Euro fighter, Herc J MR4 etc)but it's only a recruitment problem with the AA and been on the recieving end of the officer only retention package I am confussed. What is a non-renumeration retention package, is this a free pen, watch or prehaps a free PVR form. What is going on and when will the powers to be realise that AA have a brain and you can only be shafted so many times.. .If you think a poster blitz and a web site will smooth over hard cash then think again. All we wanted was a few quid just like the AEO's so that parity was maintained, but that in a fantasy world not the RAF.

mighty punter 1st Feb 2002 01:12

If anyone has read the gobbledegook brochure that came out the day after this very fair, and well thought out piece of morale crushing b*llox, then there is a paragraph which asks why these Rearcrew "o"s get the deal but us unter menschen dinnae.. . Answer-to maintain commonality across the officer aircrew types-(or words to that effect). Funny but if you look at a few of our AT/AAR chum Sqns Down South then you will find on more than one Sqn that there are 2+ O's filling FS/Sgts Pics, however they are deemed to be retention risk. Where is the commonality in that when, if there were enough non-comms around, the Sgt/FS that would eventually fill one of these O pics when he retires to Monte Carloetc, will not get the same deal even though he is replacing him one for one!. .Resigned to the fact now but as far as doing anything but my job, well to quote another infamous Airship,"They have sowed the wind-Now they must be prepared to Reap the whirlwind"

Ps.Watch out when MRA4 goes down the swanny.A bit of panic me thinx....

widge 1st Feb 2002 02:12

Hope your prediction bout MRA4 is way off the mark, as I see it as my ticket out of this mans Air Farce.

BADGER _LOOSE 1st Feb 2002 03:45

Look on the bright side at least B aerospace will pay you well before and after they shaft you, but think of the medals. In the end the airforce downunder (hush my lips) will take the under valued yet well trained chaps the airships cast aside. Go Aussie Go Aussie etc what retention problems

ttthompson 1st Feb 2002 16:58

This really is a sad thread. So many people with so much disappointment. Were we the real niave ones if we believed all that "....across the board" propaganda?

Once more sold down the Swanny, just like AEOp downbanding, Terms of Service, reserved rights, not being re-engaged to 55 unless you accept promotion, Pay 2000 for ALM's, revised flying pay (now deffered to 2004), Sar paramedic Pay.

Enough said?

Airman Aircrew, RIP

ttthompson 1st Feb 2002 18:19

Sandy Crevice, or any other takers,

If you are interested in an idea being floated around, email me with a contact address.

Don't get Mad, just join a gang, then get mad!!!

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>


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