AAC Flying Pay change
 

Anyone else seen the letter from MCM that rectifies the AAC Flying pay changes effective March 1st. If your not on Enhanced by the end of february this year you might find the expected date has changed by a year or two and in some cases three.

Each person that this effects is named on the document along with the new date that you will be entitled so if you havent yet seen it I would recommend you ask at RHQ.

[QUOTE][Each person that this effects is named on the document along with the new date that you will be entitled so if you havent yet seen it I would recommend you ask at RHQ./QUOTE]

Then you can sign off at the same time..........

It's not just for enhanced rate either. A fair few people on Lower, Middle and Top rates are affected too. I asked this question months ago with very little response. Having been on my current rate for two and a half years, according to the list I won't be seeing the next rate until 2012, when the system says I'll have "come into line".

I was never meant to be a rich man, but I'm sure someone waits for me to get to the six yard box before moving the goal posts! Anyway, back to living the dream.

Have a nice day out there PPruners,

RotP

Mmmm, I get the feeling not many people have hit the true nail on the head with this one yet...

Friday afternoon for us was awash with calculators spinning out estimamted loss of earnings; £18,000+ for me and this was far from the worst figure!!!

At a time when the Corps is finding it hard to hold onto us why does it keep kicking us in the nuts?!!!

Hopefully the idiot that made this decision - etiquette prevents me from naming and shaming - will get his MBE out of it and be proud as punch, they can even promote him and put him in charge of the retention crisis they are going to have in a few years time...

Does DAAvn know of this yet?

Flying Pay -Action required
 

This change to the rules is nothing more than a transparent attempt to cut costs and get someone an MBE.

Personally, I think that after 8 years flying I'm worth the payrise. If not then they can happly replace me with a new pilot and sent him to Herric.

I have the good fortune to have the orginal letter from 2002 that states P2 or P1 will receive TOP rate after 8 years from wings. This is what I signed up for, not these wishy washy rules now.

I have sent a letter to my MP and David Cameron asking for a Parlimentary question on this matter. BAFF (British Armed Forces Fedration) will also be informed shortly. I am also considering a petition on this site, if the response is postive.

Cheers.

At a time when the Corps is finding it hard to hold onto us why does it keep kicking us in the nuts?!!!

That's just it, retention is relatively good in the Corps - certainly compared to the other services - and therefore these type of decisions come with little risk. It sticks in the throat for those that it effects, but the facts are that pilot manning remains strong. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that the only shortage is in DE Captains.

We lost out on the FRI for the same reason.

Don't know where you got that info from, looks like every type is short.

LOSTinSPICE,

I think we could all do with a copy of that letter. When I enquired about this topic late last year I was told it was being "fired up" to DAAvn. I think he knows about it. If there's no need to pay FRI, why do we need progressive flying pay (Interesting that RAF and FAA chappies qualify for flying pay before they've even qualified on an operational type in many cases)? Don't we do it for the love of the job and because we're soldiers first? Did I just see Elvis?

Why don't the same rules apply across all three services? Their aircraft are no more complicated or any less demanding than ours (NOT looking to start a pi$$!ng contest either). And there's no less "Captaincy" taught on the "Joint" Army Pilots Course so that argument doesn't wash either.

My 2p is spent.

Merlin is absolutely right. As far as numbers are concerned, the Corps is not short of pilots and does not have a retention problem.

Why do you think that in the AFPR, that both the FAA and RAF were awarded a further FRI, but the Army wasn't?

Chicken Leg
I was informed that the quote of us being overmanned is incorrect and this was briefed very early this year and perhaps too late for AFPRB to action. I could be wrong but I hear the figure is a complete reverse of the numbers we are supposedly over strength.
I also believe this has been the case for the last few years and that includes last year when FRI was cut, but once again I could be wrong. As with all these things truth will invariably leak out so until then I presume we have to settle with hard facts such as written in the AFPRB, but please take into account that they (The AFPRB) can only go on what DAAvn tell them.

This was taken from the Pay Rise thread.......

Simple. Vote with your feet.

The civvy market is pretty much crying out for experience.

As usual, the Corps is planning for the present.

Flying pay is a retention incentive and to move the goal posts must mean that there is no need to retain pilots. Thats all well and good today but in two, four or six years? Are they going to re adjust it again?

I also hear there are moves afoot to increase the time bar on completion of the pilots course to six years and also do away with first tour flying pay.

Money isn't the driving force to go flying but it would be nice to know that we are at least on the same terms with the RAF and RN. Especially as we do the same flying course!

Nice way to go on trying to attract people to stay around Army Avn. Last one out, turn the lights off.


Overmanned?? Where?? Not on this planet.

Yes, and somewhere amongst that lot they need to find a handful of potential Fixed wing pilots.

So, more commitment with less renumeration and a ****ty contract to boot?

Yep, that sounds like a great way to retain and nurture aircrew.

Some will see this as a method of making people go AH now. How much was the FRI bandied around for them? :hmm:

It's been a while since I cast an eye over PPRUNE threads, but what a surprise (not) to see that DAAvn has done it again. How can one department make so many out of touch and uncalculated (stupid) decisions and still be taken seriously.

What part of what the **ck are you doing to the AAC and its moral dont you understand?

HQ DAAvn is supposed to support and protect the AAC and ensure that it remains in line with defence policy and capability. Joint rules and treatment would at least be a start, now it would appear that the AAC goes from crisis to crisis, without management or direction.

Oh well, at least the summers on its way, nearly time for the big push!

PP :ok:

Typical,

we spend the first 50 years of our existance justifying ourselves to the rest of the Army, Navy and Air Force and when we become a credible force in our own right, showing exactly what we're capable of, and of our future potential, we accept second best again.

I am proud to serve in the Army Air Corps. I am True Blue. How many of those "flying a desk" at DAAvn, on top and enhanced rates of flying pay can say the same. I don't fly Army because it pays well. But by the same token, I don't work for free. A fair and equal rate (for EVERYONE) doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

On close inspection of the list you might find a number of people whom have left long ago and even one whom was sadly KIA almost a year ago.

What a smack in the face that is, I am appallled!

I have always stood on the sidelines of PPrune and never posted my opinions for various reasons HOWEVER this issue is one that I just cannot stand by and watch. It is totally out of order.

I'm surprised that this forum is not inundated from outraged personnel, but then I realise that the chain of command can be very, very long especially for bad news.

As far as I am concerned, this directive is:

1. Totally out of step with the other 2 services.
2. An absurd interpretation of the rules.
3. Inspires no loyalty, and if anything will drive our pilots to the rickety gate to civvy street where there are jobs aplenty at the moment. It's suicidal.

I implore those in the "ivory tower" or " mouldy prefab" to reassess this policy document, examine and question this latest interpretation of the rules, and think sensibly of how it's delivery is perceived by those on the receiving end. Having an officer named on the hitlist who was killed nearly a year ago is totally out of order from a "just" G1 organisation.

This is the same organisation that has ADG's on operations who are not being paid for being ADG's.

It's embarrassing - please get a grip.

IIP

Hmmm.
Sounds like you chaps would benefit from having a Joint HQ!
These single service issues need to be addressed and brought into line with best practice - which in this case, does not appear to be as demonstrated by the Army!
By the way, I see lots of former Army balmy types are starting their Chinook conversion - plenty more places up for grabs I believe.

Pip, pip!

JHC Wil',

Where do I sign up? :ok:

Behind me. :E

How times have changed. I remember when SNCO/Officer flying pay was all brought into line in the 80s. At one point someone had to make a decision on whether crewman time counted towards your wings starting date for pilot pay. It did. Whoever made that interpretation of the rules certainly did me a favour as well as many others. It is a shame the same positive interpretation of the rules was not used this time. On completion of Aircrewmans course, awarded observer wing, flying pay started. Each 4 years after that a rise in flying pay. What could be more simple. The airforce and navy are still the same. Only the army insists on completing other courses to start flying pay.

Flying pay should start when you are awarded your wings. It is not only retention pay, it is additional pay for an additional skill set and a recognition of the extra element of danger that flying has.

Army Flying pay is not started until you complete a conversion after wings. Barking.The quickest way to get flying in the AAC now is to fail your lynx or AH conversion and get put onto a Gaz conversion.

I am lucky, i no longer get flying pay as I am on PES. If this decision had cost me a single pound ... oh how i would have congratulated the system on another fine piece of man management.

This change in flying pay has saved money. At what cost? Some aircrew on the list will have to wait an extra 4 years to get to the next rate. Do the AAC have such a glut of aircrew that they can afford to be so blatant about this 'anti retention' measure. No retention bonuses, just the opposite.

No one wins after this change. MOD save a bit of money but the long term result will be more good guys leaving. Net loss for the MOD. Simple to change. Flying pay starts after wings and increases every 4 years after that.

Jeep,
Always nice tangling with you on this media. I must take issue with you however in your last post. Flying pay did not start on award of wings, it started on taking up a flying appointment which attracted flying pay, in the Field Army, post award of wings.
So Low Ball got his wings on the 15th Jan 1970 (were you at School by then?) and all his course mates disappeared off to UK, BAOR, Middle East and Far East to fly the powerful Sioux. Ah the days of postings anywhere in the world with not a care in the world no house no labrador no worries! LB was to be a Scout Pilot (Queeen of the sky). Anyway after the Scout Course I took up an appointment in BAOR and my flying pay started from the date on the posting order. All my contemporaries had had the benefit of flying pay for some 6 months.
Never got over it
Low Ball

Jeep / LB, different again as my Flying pay started (as a crewman, Royal Marine) the day I walked through the gates at MW to start the course. Every 3 yrs after that another increase, consequently myself and many others starting Pilots courses later on were already on 2nd tour, your increases continued so that by the time I did the Aircraft Commanders course I went straight onto 2rd tour A/C pay.


Another huge bungle that can only send more people off to civvy street.

Low Ball

We must have been at MW at the same time. Got my wings Oct 69 (Course 208 - the last Hiller course) and went on to fly my namesake. I seem to remember getting student flying pay during the course but can't find any documentation to support the memory.

I can't speak for the Navy, but this is true in the RAF as well. There are a lot of people on this thread and the other one on AAC pay/FRI/FP complaining that the RAF get flying pay either at wings, or after X weeks of flying training; no longer the case!

Current RAF trainee pilots get initial rate FP on completion of a recognised OCU, or on recategorisation to B1 if they're first-tourist instructors. So you're not the only ones who get it on conversion! Bearing in mine the lengths of holds that you can still find if you're unlucky, you're looking at 6 months for EFT, 10 months for BFJT, 6-8 months AFT, 4-6 months TW, 6 months OCU...

Clockwork Mouse
I was on 210 APC, which really was the last Hiller course, flying 52 hours on Hiller and 8 hours on the Bell G4A in Basic Rotary.
Alan

Well history and reunions in the making. CM and Python 21 you are both right (call it an age problem) There was a student rate of flying pay not much IIRC around the £1 mark. So I remained on student rates until I appeared at Bunde as a trained Scout pilot.

BTW Python we were on the same course of the two of us that wore tarton on 210 I was the young handsome one

LB

P21 and LB
If you two were Jocks, I think I may have a vague memory (every memory is vague these days) of one of you. Wish I could work out how to post a photograph on this blasted thing, but then I was only a Sioux pilot!

P21 and CM

P21 was not a Jock I now know who he is and he was a Royal. There were still 2 Jocks on 210, both amazingly called Mike, I was the Lt the other was a Capt.

Still no clues as to your ID CM?

LB

LB
Still no clues as to your ID CM?
I'll try to remember who I am. Think I was an Anglian. Captain at the time. Was Richard Orde, a Jock, on 210? Inshaw? Clarke?
Come to think of it, Orde was earlier, 207 I think.

LB,

was that not back in the days when £1 went a long way? :}

Lowball - you go back further than me, thank you for the correction.

Elmlea - just shows you cant believe everything you hear. Thanks for putting me straight.

Jeep

DAAVN's View on the new rules
 

Had a visit from DAAVN top brass yesterday to the Regiment. We got a chance to view our concerns on various things including this pay change.

The short of it is from above this pay change is here to stay and pilots will have to 'mark time' (civvie speak -pay cut) on their pay. He also said that the Lynx fleet is undermanned (at last the penny drops but no retention bonus). He did say that P2 pay may also go.

I told him that I have a copy of the old rules from DAAVN stating effectively the opposite of what he was saying but it was brushed over.

I'm not 'marking time' for anybody. If the AAC wants to pay me only 2 flying tours, then thats all they will get! RAF here I come!

Cheers.

A quick word in CGS's ear
 

Me again. I was tasked to fly CGS from A to B. Guess what my top subject was? Yep, P1 pay. CGS is a pilot himself and was on side about our pay claims. He said he would speak to DAAVN about it very soon.

Being a crusty pilot NCO has some privilages after all!

Ta Ta for now.

I have been itching to get my bit in but only just remebered password and as a person that now has to mark time for another 4 1/2 years to go onto enhanced I feel a few words need to be said.

Correct me if I am wrong but a flying tour is a flying tour and it is deemed to be 4 years as it is across the services. Therefore:

0-4 years lower rate
4-8 years middle rate
8-12 years higher rate
12+ enhanced

I was a Cpl pilot and had the long wait for Ac Comd and got it after 4 1/2 years but was already on middle rate as being a pilot and completed 9 yrs reckonable got it after 3 years as the rules clearly defined. i then went onto Ac Comd middle rate and subsequently higher rate at the 8 yr point.

During this time there was confusion for everyone in this bracket and clearly remebered and still have possession of a letter from DAAvn stating that to avoid confusion flying tours were 4, 8, 12 respectively and we all agreed.

To state the rules now and having read the recent letter from DAAvn there is a complete shift and if you read the rules then all these years since 1964 (the pay warrant) there was no justification for getting Ac Comd as you would have reverted to P1 initial. Clearly a load of B----x as usual. Surely the tours of 4, 8 and 12 are stead fast and the incentive to command and qualify was rewarded with the extra pay for the extra responsibility. Call me old fashioned but this is the norm in civ div for any pilot receiving command. More responsibility-more pay.

It is also worth noting on the AFPRB 07 that it clearly states that to go onto enhanced you must have been in receipt of higher rate for the previous 4 years. Who is right the AFPRB or the clown who introduced this JPA fiasco.

Also with regards to P1 and P2 - years ago and more so today I used to log P1 in the relevant column but still got P2 pay so surely somewhere along the line i must be due back pay for all my P1 time. Clearly not cause you would not be able to work it out but its worth a legal wrangle if nothing else.

Many more comments to come now I have my password but must dash for now but has anyone got the number of that legal beagle that was used in the FRI scandal a couple of years ago. Bet he could do with a few more clients to cater for.

...surely it's more of a dull bronze these days.

We need more PPruners!
 

I'm surprised at the limited mumber of replies concerning this pay **** up. Come on guys please take 2 minutes of your time and log in, lets here your views!

Cheers.

Hello,

Sorry for not speaking out before now, but I have been busy trying to find out if this was really going to happen or not.
Unfortunately it is.
We have been told that we are lucky and should be happy because we do not have to pay back all the money that has (allegedly) been incorrectly paid.:ugh:
A pilot coming off the course now will be paid £44000 less over a twelve year tour.
This change of interpretation along with removal of FRI is appalling and will not do the Corps any favours.
I think there has not been many posts for a few reasons:

1. not everyone knows about it yet.
2. some people just dont believe it will happen (it is, so suck it up)
3. Those who have just gone up a rate and are going to get paid £30000+ more than a mate (who did their check ride a week later), might be a little embarassed and a bit worried in case he loses his own higher rate.
4. People are in shock.
5. They are too busy looking on LASORS, CAA or in the RAF careers office.

This decision saddens me as I have always been proud of my Army pilot status but now dont care what colour my uniform is as long as I am treated well.
I dont know if complaining will change anything.
The only thing that will change is Senior Army pilots will be looking elsewhere.

Adios Amigos

My paperwork has just gone in.