This deserves to stay up until one of the Falaise Road Assault Group (FRAG)SO1's feels the need to explain how 3,000 hours P1 (750 Night) on a staff desk allows you to shaft or ignore the new blood in the Corps. Although when you need MapQuest to get to the Hangars, why would you even think this was an issue? For everyone who wondered what lowering the Director's post to 1 Star from 2 Star would mean in real terms, all those years ago, here's a good example. Singe would have relished a challenge like this.

Singe
 

I'm afraid the days of the Corps having real characters with a geniene interest in its future are sadly gone. I wonder what the likes of Gen. Lytle would have made of this whole sorry affair? :=

A letter to the AFPRB, explaining that over 300 aircrew in the AAC have, in effect, received a pay cut this year, should give us another line of development to pursue.

Even better, 300 letters, each describing the precise figure of the financial loss that D/AAvn/31/003 is going to cost an entire generation of Army pilots, should really ram the point home. (For those of you who have not yet calculated it, I've written a spreadsheet to work out the actual loss in pay. PM me and I'll send you a copy).

At the very least, we must ask them to visit Middle Wallop and/or Wattisham during 2007 to get an opportunity to make our voices heard, and not those cowardly yes-men at DAAvn who have lost any right to represent our best interests.

Admittedly, it is the long game, but continued and persistent pressure is our best bet. I recommend addressing your letters to AVM (Retd) Ian M Stewart, CB - as a former Harrier pilot, he should be able to convince the remainder of the panel that this policy is against the long-term interests of Defence, and that the SO1s at DAAVn and PS10 have quite simply got it wrong about our intentions for continued service in the face of such betrayal. Professor David Greenaway, the chairman of the AFPRB, should also be copied on any letters that are written.

Letters for the AFPRB should be sent to the following address:

c/o Mr P Bush
AFPRB Secretariat
OME
6th Floor, Bay 669
Kingsgate House
66-74 Victoria Street
LONDON
SW1E 6SW

There is a comments form available at http://www.ome.uk.com/contact.cfm although I suspect that a proper letter is more likely to have the desired effect.

Do this - my letter alone will not make a difference. 300 will.

Pay...
 

Nice one,

I'm drafting my letter now :ok:.

I have recently had the party line from DAAvn and his staff regarding the state of the nation. I am appalled by these recent changes to flying pay and like so many, it is another nail in the coffin lid for me. That isn’t why I’m posting though. I think that before we all shoot the messenger, it isn’t the messenger who has caused the current situation. :hmm:
The Army is broke; no money anywhere and the AAC consumes a vast amount of the Army budget, even more so now the Apache has arrived. Now consider that there are many well established Regiments with friends in very high places who will no doubt have pointed, where necessary, those in the direction of a cost cutting freebie in order to save their own plans and desirable improvements for their own Regiment. I would imagine that with the exception of 16 Bde and now 3 Cdo Bde (thanks to the Apache in Helmand) I don’t think that the AAC has too many friends in Town. :(

I can tell you that there is work in being done to rectify what has been done. I would imagine this change came as a real googly to those in the crease. It doesn’t minimise the impact to those directly affected. More communication about this would not have gone amiss, indeed this forum is read by those in DAAvn; and though unconventional, a post on here would touch the masses. :ok:

Greenielynxpilot, great post :D

QHI 656,
Interesting post - but I must challenge you on your thought process. I couldn't give a monkeys bum for the rest of the Army and how Apache is viewed in town or who is high up in which Regimental MAFIA ruling the roost.
Based on your assumptions then we, as the British Army should have united against the RAF and RN and gone for the jugular on those areas of Defence Spending that are not contributing to real world operations or training for operations. We could all look around and identify the areas (and I do not for one moment think I am having a sideways swipe at Typhoon, MRA4, T45 or the new carriers, because they will vindicate themselves I am sure, just as we did after many a year of virtually everyone doubting us and the Apache.
The point that I think you have missed QHI is that I am more than content to take a real time pay cut for the Defence of the Country (did I just say that!!) - seriously, if that was what our lords and masters had agreed, I would have sucked it up and felt the pain.
But can someone please tell me that if Defence (not just the Army echelons of power) is that broke, why didn't HQ DAAvn stand up to the treasury, top brass with the very simple fact that on operations, here and now we are fighting alongside both RAF and RN aviators, in exactly the same uniform and under the same command.
So if Defence is that broke why doesn't HQ DAAvn and the Army tell the RN and RAF to backfill their shortfall with this so called (still unconfirmed') 'surplus' of Army pilots. When we are supposedly working for the same company under a Joint Personnel Agency can individuals get paid different amounts despite being of the same rank, length of service and professional qualification?
It has nothing to do with the Army/Defence being broke - it is the fact that I am in Joint Helicopter Command and not only do I see myself and my Army Air Corps colleagues not getting any FRI for our efforts, but I also have to take a real pay cut over the years ahead.
Where was DAAvn's Staff when the other 2 Services were obviously fighting their corner - yet again back to being Teeny Weenie Airways, with wheezie boy in the corner!
Sorry QHI - you want us to fight together then pay us together - this is just so deviscive and can only breed ill feeling.

Bottom line QHI - if the Army is broke and cannot afford us, then I am sure that the RAF/RN will find some funds for us and look after its people in a much better way than HQ DAAvn.

AQHI656

I think the clue is in the first line of your post. "The party line"

Since when has a party line actually involved the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?. If it ever did then there would be no requirement for a "party line", would there ?

In the big scheme of things (Defence Budgets and spending) the amount of money saved by these new interpretations of old rules really is insignificant. The real life cost of training new aircrew will far outweight any perceived saving.

The question is even more simple than people are making out.

Q. Why are the rules concerning flying pay different for qualified pilots doing the same job under the same Command for the same Queen.

A. ( DAAvn staff to insert implausible long winded answer here)

I wasn't expecting that!
 

Front Seater, normal service resumes ;) Mate I'm not saying I agree with what was said, indeed it has added another crack in my resolve, flying pay cuts, poor flying rates, forced move to Wattashambles does not a retention policy make :=
I simply injected the idea that DAAvn is working to resolve the issue, they didn't request the change, but they do have to handle the fall-out.
Ron, what makes the whole joint thing even worse is that in the RAF, NAVs and pilots get paid the rate of flying pay, now I'm unsure about RN front seat crew, maybe somebody on this forum could advise. Yet two pilots in an Army aircraft, (including Apache) are rated differently. Shocking! :sad:

RN Pilots are paid the same rates as RAF, whether they fly a Harrier a SeaQueen or a desk.

Incidentally, they also still get FRI, 50k obviously as there are no oiks about, whether they fly a Harrier, SeaQueen or a desk.

Ohhh or a Lynx!

Not sure about RM but can't see it being much different.

Ron, I know RN pilots get the same flying pay, but what about the front seat crew on Navy Lynx etc?

Sorry AHQHI, I realised after i posted that you probably meant that, I will check with my RN overpaid comrades and get back to you (after Easter as I'm buggering orffff) :)

I have had a letter back from my MP saying he is writing to the Minister of Defence about this issue:D . I've also written to BAFF (British Armed Forces Federation) asking them for assistance as I'm considering taking legal action.

Thanks for the info on AFPRB, I'll write to them shortly.

Cheers.

Variation On A Theme
 

I passed out of Wallop in the summer of '86 as an NCO pilot. There were four officers and five (as you had to be then) SNCOs.

The NCOs went to squadrons flying around 300-400 hours a year. One of them went to NI flying up to 700. The officers were expected to fly less than half that. We got NCO flying pay, the officers got a much higher officer's rate which applied to all three services.

Mainly due to Maggie's "Options For Change" Forces Review, I did the compulsory four years and left. Since then I've been flying for exactly the same pay as anyone else with the same level of experience etc. The way it should be. And some of the posts here are on the money (excuse the pun), there are plenty of good paying jobs on the outside.

Now it appears that even with complex types like Apache to fly, all AAC aircrew are being shafted :mad:

NEO

Greenie,

Your obviously the main focus on here and I admire your posts that show complete determination and I for one support you fully.

I have drafted a few letters and need guidance on who and where to send them so that they are hitting the same places that yours are hitting. I also know of one person who has sought legal advice on the matter and is waiting for the next stage so fingers crossed we may be able to get some answers and rectification on this damning subject.

Anybody else who has an avid interest in this topic whould be following the lead set by greenie as it is in your best interests and certainly affects your wallet over the next few years.

Lets keep it up without failing to do our jobs but certainly maintaining our displeasure in the way in which we are being treated.

Lets move forward in unity.

Absurd!
 

I have been following threads on this site for some time now but have always been reluctant to get involved however this thread has broke me.

I would like to say that it is sad that the last post prior to this one is almost a week old. It seems to me either people have now got bored with it or like myself do not always believe in airing their views in this manor, either way the members of this site at the higher end of the CoC I’m sure will be sitting behind their desks thinking “well that’s the worst of it over and its all calm waters from here on“. I beg to differ. I’m hoping that the reason there has been little interest recently is that individuals are carefully planning their future on this one and seeking some sort of Legal Advice.

It would be a shame if DAAVN was again allowed to sell us down the river with everyone sitting back and accepting yet another change to the regulations which where in force when most of the worst affected individuals qualified from Middle Wallop.

I have been informed by a reliable source that Comd JHC himself has recently visited one of our Regiments to talk about FSI following a recent accident, and this was raised as the first discussion point in what was perceived as an open forum. He left having discussed nothing about FSI but did say the following comments on this matter:

“This is in to stay and is very unlikely it will be changed or rectified, there has been no changes made to the current regulations as this has always been the regulations on flying pay which has been over looked for such a long time”

“The Army Air Corps is currently over strength with pilots so a few pilots leaving will not effect the manning a great deal, it will take a lot more than normal to leave before any sort of FRI would be considered by the AFPRB, and it is unlikely that the amount of pilots who will leave would be any where near the amount required”

“DAAVN will be publishing an article in the next DAAVN Bulletin to explain in more clearer terms the new regulations and why it has now come into force”

I have no reason to believe that the quotes above were not said but I’m sure if this is not a true and accurate account then someone in the higher CoC will be more than happy to correct me and give us all an accurate account of what exactly was said on this matter.

Hearing the above, I now accept that this is not going to be corrected as we all are hoping, and I’m sure if it is the case where the Army Air Corps is so over manned with pilots then they will not be too affected by me Terminating my service and taking the leap into the civilian market where life will be a lot more pleasant and secure for both myself and my family.

I now intend to inform my CoC immediately on return from Easter Leave of my intentions.

It has been a pleasure serving and flying in the Army Air Corps, but I will now happily take my experience to someone who will not only benefit from it, but also respect it.

Ricon is right. Don't forget that, rather than PVR, you can write a letter stating your intention to leave at a particular point, e.g. end of timebar. They can't actually do anything until you submit formal PVR paperwork, but the point will be noted.

Does anyone know how to post a survey here, or link it to here, to see how many people are intending to leave at the end of a timebar rather than stay in? I don't know how to but it would be interesting to see and compare to known numbers of active pilots in the Corps i.e. not those flight safety liabilities in HQ DAAvn.

I for one will be voting with my feet!

Some good points Ricon

I am a little perplexed regarding the AAC being over strength as that just doesnt seem to be true. I don't know of any Field Army Squadrons up to strength.

Aside from that though it just cannot be condoned that 1 Arm of HM Forces interprets a document one way and yet the other 2 another.

I am glad you brought this topic back to light as the Easter break has obviously kept people away.

Ricon, Some heart felt points made - it will be a pity that yet another member of the Corps has been left feeling that the only viable option is to pull the 'black and yellow' and depart to civvie street to be appreciated.

With reference to the visit of Comd JHC to one of the Regiments, I would be perturbed if he left with an impression that manning and flying pay/FRI issues were not causing concern at the 'coal face'. I have been reliably informed that post the recent accident a 'no holds barred' open forum was held at which manning/leave (ability to take or not)/financial issues were just some of those raised as contributory points to generally feeling of malaise.

I live in hope that things will improve.

pax

I rarely come on this site but this subject forces me too, yes I am on the hit list and was due to move to enhanced this year but not anymore. The upper echelons of the Corps should be ashamed of themselves, as always we get screwed time and time again; never have I witnessed such a lack of leadership in my 20+ year career. I have for the majority of my time in the Army enjoyed myself and given 100+% at all times, in return I expect a fair deal but this decision is absolutely appalling. These kind of decisions enforce outside opinion that we play at it (aviation) and make us the laughing stock amongst the other Services, it's only the professionalism of the individuals at the coal face that change this perception of the Corps.

I will be leaving at the first opportunity (IPP):* and taking my 4000+hrs and Q qual experience elsewhere. Never have I witnessed and never do I want to witness the level of appalling management (loosest possible term) that I have experienced in recent years.

The Corps should be ashamed and in their 50th year, appalling management and incompetence, alongside the belief that the guys on the ground will just accept this decision, unbelievable. Hopefully the merging of DAAvn into JHC will finally give us some form of leadership and remove it as a hiding place for those individuals who clearly have no real ability and having been sacked from previous post are able to operate and come up with ludicrous decisions and policy time after time; time for a clear out I reckon.

Well rant over and bring on the airlines!:)

Too many Army pilots.
 

I've had a few telephone calls to friends in all of the Army Air Corps regiments, and the general feeling is none of them are up to strength. So, if we are being told we are up to full manning, what manning levels are we aiming for, are the HQ’s accepting 75% as full?

Mutley, the other services don't have to interpret the document at all, as they only have one rate of flying pay for pilots and navs. So can anybody tell me why a newly qualified Army pilot gets less flying pay than both newly qualified RAF pilot and newly qualified RAF Nav?

My Army flying has just had one more nail in the coffin lid!:\

Still nothing heard on the grapevine - nor should we expect to I guess....

Anyone notice on the 'Policy letter' that the AFPRB is due to review P1 and P2 pay in 2008....

You can guarantee what will happen!

The AFPRB will report that it is barking to have different rates of pay for doing the same job across all three services.

So they will probably get rid of P2 and bring AAC flying pay policy into line and pay us the same as....errrr..... everyone else…..

Of course, all of us seen off after the 'correction' of mid-rate flying pay will not then have this changed back and still have to wait an additional 2/3 years until 2009/10/11 to get put onto middle-rate.

Sigh.............:D

Too Little, Too Late...
 

Pongochap,

I feel that any measures taken now to rectify this sorry affair will be too little, too late. As you say, there will still be those who lose out whatever action is taken. Unfortunately the damage already appears to have been done to steel the resolve of many who will pick their moment and leave when it suits them. Good on them too. And with them will go a large chunk of experience and expertise :ugh:. Army Aviation now faces an uncertain future and I for one am sorry to see it come to this :bored: .

A friend who is in the same position recently told me about some of the things he is got going on in the back of all this regarding legal advice so standby for some updates shortly.

He also brough out a very good point that the Pay Warrant stated that having completed 9 yrs service you went onto P2 middle after 3 years. If you then got Ac Comd at the 4 1/2 yr point (year and half later) you remained on P2 middle until 4 years had been completed (marking time as P1 intial not as much as P2 middle). Therefore this reflects the 7 year point at which you would have moved onto P1 middle (7-11) for 4 years and then P1 higher at the 11 year point and enhanced at the 15 year point. This is what they have now said the regulations state so therefore some of the dates that DAAvn sent out are actually incorrect IAW the pay warrant that has been mis read for the last x amount of years. Interesting thoughts and work it out for yourselves so there is at least something we can get back.

I thought there was no shortage of Lynx pilots due to the cutbacks in the fleet announced in 2005?

Either way, it's something else that's pushed me over the edge. Top level 'management' being one of them.

I'll hopefully be working for a service which values its aircrew and recognises that training them is costly and time consuming.

Eight Eights Blue,

unfortunately you have to read the wording that was in the pay warrant and JSP752 which is NOW very clear. It actually says after 3/4 years on the "preceeding" rate and of course, subject to the completion of 9 years service. The issue with the Army isn't how long you've been in receipt of a particular rate, more, how you ended up on that rate in the first place :bored: .

It does clearly state that after 4 years on the preceeding rate you are entitled to move onto the next pay band so I've no idea how they'll be able to justify people marking time for 5, 6 or 7 years until the system catches up := .

In a new twist, it would appear that our Aviation Crewman, some of whom have been on a 3 tier system have also been incorrectly paid and are now about to all move onto a flat rate which amounts to less than a fiver a day. Again, where is the incentive for our young groudcrew to advance into instructor roles etc. The novelty soon wears off at which point it'll become harder to retain the experience that's been accumulated and that we could all benefit from in the future. Beginning to see a pattern?

:D

Bump!

Any news?

Well, the good news is that the AFPRB are visiting 9 Regt AAC at some point in the next few months (apparently this was already planned and not the result of any letters written by members of this board).
Still, this is a good chance to make our voices heard by people who really matter. Those of you who are at 9 Regt AAC MUST take this opportunity to explain the full consequence of this decision on your take-home pay and the effect this is having on your morale, and consequently on your desire to stay in for the long term.
The rest of the Corps is relying on you. Let us know how it goes.

Are they visiting before or after the AH crews have departed? Not that its important to me but I am curious if they will interview from across the board and not just Lynx drivers.

My tag should give you a clue to what i do!
Just a quick line to say thanks to all the guys who have fought our corner, you know who you are. It's good to finally see our job getting the recognition it deserves. It looks like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But i'll believe it when the cash is in the bank!

No news as of yet but at least this will bring the thread back to the front of the forum

It would be interesting to know exactly how many individuals have actually terminated their terms of service as a result of this. A lot of people on here keep hinting that they are going to "vote with their feet" but how many actually have.

I will start you of:

1. Me (RICON)




Ps. Eight Eights Blue: you need to concentrate more on getting prepared for this weekend rather than worrying about getting this thread to the front of the cue.

I have completed the training programme all culminating in a weekend of debauchery in a european capital and may I say that I did not impress myself too much.
However, the annual occasion this weekend always brings the best out in me and I will do my very best to uphold the true honoured traditions.

See you there or maybe NOT!!!!

RICON

You have demonstrated perfectly why your lords and masters need do nothing more about this.

You've asked for some public support and asked others to display how disgusted you are with your feet and in three days you have not had a single reply to your battle cry.

The problem is that the AAC is overmanned with pilots and no matter what is thrown at you, you will not leave in your droves. Sorry guys, I reckon you're stuck with this one.

AW i think you are right.

IF everyone is prepared to take and stick with the current constant changes that the AAC is dictating then that is their decission. This C/S however is not prepared to be bullied into changes which clearly state a difference between the 3 services in JHC, and accept the changes which have been made in order for the AAC to save money to supplement the Apache Fleet so as not to admit defeat and allow the RAF to take command of it. Afterall what else can this be for. It is surely not to sustain the Lynx Fleet which is hardly doing any flying (unless on detachment), or to sustain the Gazelle Fleet which is soon to winde down. Maybe its the Kingair, who knows. Maybe its the AAC 50th anneversary party or the next officers mess cocktail party at Middle Wallop. We will never know as it looks like no-one on here (or at DAAVN) in a higher appointment in the CoC is willing to give any sort of explanation as to why the AAC feels the need to ROB its pilots out of money they duely earn, especially with the amount of detachments and tours on-going at present.

I do understand that it is not practicle at the minute for most people to terminate due to family and finacial commitments, or lack of hours to Bridge, but how much more will people be prepared to accept before even they break.

Good luck gentlemen, I have already observed that the market in civillian street has a lot more to offer than 3 square meals a day and pennies to live on.

I hope all your day-dreams come true and this is resolved promtly for you all.

Ricon.

sorry - forgot to mention - I'm definitely going as this is the last straw, so it's civvy street for me. Will be signed off by end of the year. You're not alone Ricon!

To be honest I think that the relative lack of interest here on PPRUNE is not indicative of the depth of feeling throughout the Corps. If anyone is using this thread as a measuring tool then real life will catch up sooner than they think.

Ron,

Please do not think for one minute I was considering this thread as a measuring tool for the AAC. I understand that a serious minority of the AAC aircrew subscribe to this site, let alone read it.

I was purely trying to decipher between the amount of individuals (as members of this site) that have said they will “vote with their feet” and the actual amount of individuals that where willing to do so.

I have been a member of the AAC for the entire of my career, from A/Tpr through to Aircrew so I am not randomly stating feelings, which seem biased towards the AAC. I am purely stating MY feelings of discontent with the current situation and with over 2500hrs of flying experience so far I now feel my experience would be more beneficial and appreciated elsewhere. As I said, I was purely trying to indicate who else was in the same mindset.

I would also like to take this opportunity to address DAAVN himself (as we all know he reads this).

Tomo,

I seriously hope you do get the MBE/OBE you are graciously trying for (I do not know and do not really care what honours you currently hold as these are unimportant to me in the current climates of detachments and tours. To me you are an appointment not an individual).

I would not take this forum too seriously, as of now there have been 11,721 views of the thread but yet only 158 posts. As any good pilot should be able to tell you this is a poor percentage and at only 1.34% of posts per views I’m sure you will accept that this is well below the expected expenditure of pilots over the next 12 months.

Assuming of course that these views are ALL AAC, which it is seriously unlikely to be, I’m guessing that the 1.34% replies is unrealistic.

I believe you seriously need to decide which figure of terminations will be operationally acceptable and the amount of tasks you require the AAC to conduct in the future, and to which your fine organisation at Middle Wallop are producing such fine qualities of ground crew and aircrew. I for one firmly believe that the decisions being made in your department at present are far beyond what you are expecting in return from your Corps.

What the AAC needs is a leader and adviser in Aviation, who is willing to stand up and defend certain decisions such as arguments with the AFPRB to the current regulations regarding Specialist Pay (Flying) and the discrepancies between the 3 services regarding this pay, and not someone who considers “banning tomato ketchup in the officers mess” more important.

It will only be a matter of time before the press get wind of this situation, and understand the seriousness of Army Air Corps pilots deploying to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan when their total thought process is not on the job ahead.

People have planned and predicted future incomes on expenditures such as mortgages, children’s education etc. on the expected increment of Specialist Pay (Flying). The last thing that the British Army needs is a pilot on detachment worrying about financial matters back home, just because a certain individual has decided to change the criteria.

I believe an immediate response from you on this matter, and the current situation regarding manning, is well over due and should be acted on immediately to save embarrassment and future terminations.

Sir, I no longer remain your obedient servant,

RICON

Ps. If any of the Press wish to know exactly what is going on with the Army Air Corps flying pay situation then please PM me. I will not reply within 28 days from this date (30 May 2007), to wait for an acceptable reply (on this thread) from higher authority within MOD. Beyond that date I will happily inform any interested party on the current situation (except the SUN).

I've done it too. Soon be a civi! No point in banging on, it is not going to change. If you dont like it - leave. There are plenty who will fill your shoes. Sad but true. This is the army and none of us (however much we like like to think different) are indispensible.

:D Congrats Horror box, the job market is certainly under going a period of improved opportunites for those with a couple of thousand hours behind them and mostly you won't be asked to live away from home out of a black plastic box, or sleep on a cot bed in a shared tent for weeks on end.

Good Luck :ok: