Last NCO Pilot entry?
 

G'day,

Following a question from my uncle, an ex-RAF Flt.Sgt. Pilot (Mosquitos), I'm trying to ascertain when the RAF stopped recruiting and training NCO Pilots. I have the feeling it was pre-Korean War, possibly 1949.

Anyone know/recall?

Whilst on the subject, anyone know when they stopped recruiting NCO Navs?

FFE

No firm corroboration, but Wiki suggests it was 1950.

This old PPrune thread seems to agree.

I had a degree when I started at Cranwell (1984) so I was commissioned on the first day. I was also a Cpl (acting Sgt) until the Army discharged me on Graduation day, 18 weeks later.

Does that count?!

We had a Sergeant Signaller on 152 sqn in Bahrain who was accepted for pilot training after his return to UK in 1961. He became an NCO chopper pilot.

Brakedwell has just reminded me of the best QFI I ever flew with - Brian Skillicorn - the bio says "Brian joined the RAF as an apprentice in 1959 before becoming a Sergeant pilot getting his wings in 1963 and heading for the far east to fly helicopters with 225 and 103 Squadrons. Brian was commissioned and won the AFC in 1967...."

Raf Nco Pilots
 

I had the dubious pleasure of being in the infantry and in 1965/1966 we were in the third division in Borneo supported by 110 Sqn RAF based at Nanga Ghat flying Whirlwind 10s. Their det had an NCO pilot called Fred Airies (spelling?). Just as we were about to leave in March 1966 Belevedere was introduced and we had spent the previous month increasing the size of all the HLSs (no mean feat!) in our area of operations. The first Belevedere flown in was piloted by a Warrant Officer whose name I never discovered.

So RAF NCO aircrew were still at the controls in 1966, of helecopoters at least.

Low Ball

Warrant Officer "Taff" Walker was still instructing on the good old Wessex on 240 OCU at Odiham in 1979 and possibly a little after, I think he was the last flying RAF NCO pilot. I'm not sure when the RAF ceased recruiting NCO pilots though.

There was a Master Pilot at Lyneham, albeit not on flying duties but managing an ops desk, in 1977. He'd flown everything, everywhere. Brigands were his favourite for stories.

It's Fred Ayris Low Ball. He too was subsequently commissioned, but not before he'd got the AFM - not sure what for. He was also subsequently in the Whirlwind which flew into the hangar at Valley ..... but maybe Oldbeefer could tell us more about that.....;)

As for Navs,there were a couple still on 72 Sqn (Wessex at Odiham) in the early 70s, one was an aged Master (Warrant Officer) but one was a (relatively) young-looking Flight Sergeant. I'll dust off Vol 1 of the log books and see if I can find a name.

Taff Walker was indeed the last flying non-commissioned pilot in the RAF - for that he got his picture on the cover of Air Clues when he retired.

NCO pilots
 

When I was on the Shack MOTU in 1964 one of the Sgt student pilots went away for a long w/e and came back as a Flying Officer. When I joined 210 at Ballykelly a little later my first crew had a very young Sgt pilot. He resisted all attempts to be commissioned and left to go to BOAC. Most of my flying training at Topcliffe was spent sitting behind or beside Master Pilots of varying nationalities and there were several Master Navs and a couple of F.S. navs and pilots as well.
The Ancient Mariner

Still flying, too, AFAIK. Occasionally rings me up to help out with formation stuff at North Weald - though I've never been able to oblige, and suspect that my formation skills are now rather too rusty to be relied upon! A fine chap, Skilli.

Scroggs

teeteringhead
 

Yes, Fred was up front, but the aircraft was flown by Mike Ramshaw. Whoops, I said I'd never tell anybody!

I thought M.R. preferred attacking the hangar roof from above .... :E

I remember the Unit Test Pilot, at Tern Hill and Shawbury, at least from 1975, quite clearly - well, all but his name - Oh, It's just come to me...
Master Pilot Alec Riddoch!
I remember refering to him as "Mister" Riddoch, a term he seemed to like very much!
Often, he would put his Flying Jacket on to do Flight Tests - Not a Flying Suit - Just Blues and his Jacket would do, as he probably needed somewhere to put his Chinagraph. He had a Flt Lt working alongside him, who was obviously tollerated by Alec up to his retirement (though the Flt Lt was quite a good UTP too!).

I remember an RAF Cpl going through the Army Pilots course in the late 90s. Believe he had to transfer to the army before he recived his wings. Cant have RAF NCO with wings bad show what what what!

Floppy

I seem to remember that there was a Master Pilot around BK at the same kind of time

Raf Nco On Army Pilots Course
 

Floopy,

If this is the man I know I thought it was a bit earlier that you suggest. IIRC I was the CFI at Wallop at the time. He completed the course as an RAF NCO (SGT IIRC) in the event he failed he would have gone straight back to the RAF without having reduce a rain forrest to rebadge him from the Army! Anyway good for him he passed and got his wings dressed as an AAC SGT. Initially he flew helicopters and somewhere down the line took up fixed wing (Islander) and got a commission. Then low and behold he transfers back into the RAF and ended up as captain of a C130. Not sure where he is now. He is called Allan and I don't recall his surname. It was all very interesting as I had first met him at Bessbrook as a Puma Crewman 76/77. The whole thing was very much a 'one off' as the RAF felt there might be a flood of NCO Crewmen who would follow in his tracks, that caused some angst if I recall.

Low Ball

Airborne artist:

Brian Skillicorn?

That brings back memories! Bedford circa 1973 and a much modified scout. Listening in the tower to an engineer discussing on the RT how much strain was being put on various bits of said aircraft, and some very laconic responses.

Low Ball

The 'Alan' you are thinking of transferred across in the very early 80's and ended up as my bosss on Islanders. Yes he did transfer back to the RAF and ended up as a C130 captain. He has now left the Military and flies civvy planks.

The other guy referred to in the thread was very much later and I think he went through Barkston in '95 or thereabouts.

There was, indeed, a re-introduction of NCO pilots in the mid 60s. It was a short term measure, presumably because of recruiting pressures. Tony Stafford and ????? Jones spring to mind from Valley/Tern Hill days. 'Nobby' Clark was still operating as a QHI at Valley and we had another M/Plt come through on SAR training. He had been on piston engine Whirlwinds some years previously - his computer-out flying was noticeably smoother than computer-in and his rotor rev control was immaculate!!!:ok:
The last days of the previous era of NCO pilots was the usual RAF nonsense in (as it then was) Transport Command. We had two M/Plts at Dishforth, one was a double A cat on Bevs AND Hastings and the other on Hastings. 'On High' dictated that its nice shiny aircraft could not be captained by lowly NCOs and, in order to preserve this stupidity, there was introduced the category of 'Training Captain' - not a 'proper' Captain, you see!!!:ugh: Eventually both these high quality professionals were forced to go to the Rupert factory to do the knife and fork course and told that they would NOT fail!!
So much of my flying time was in the company of these proper professionals although Skilli was in elevated mode at Boscombe! I've flown with at least three of these 'retreads' in both their primary and commissioned versions - surprisingly their later elevation did nothing to change their skills - either as pilots or people.:rolleyes:
My advanced flying training was done at Thorney in the mid 50s and there was almost a preponderance of NCO pilots there - a lot of brass eagles on left breast pocket flaps!!! they had been there ... and a lot of them showed the scars - literally. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be:hmm:

Cornish Jack
Tony Stafford was the signaller I was referring to. He was a great bloke, unfortunately our paths never crossed after Bahrain.

I remember a master pilot in the jp sim at linton in the early 80s

Master Pilots
 

What a fantastic rank (title) to have!
I was down the back of a Wessex and had to retrieve "Taff" Walkers magnifying glass, which he had dropped on a navex!!
He even called the staish "boy".
(Started on Mosquitos and joined about '42, I think).
I could have sworn that "Jock" Riddoch flew last.
But I guess RAF News should know!
As you say UTP SY.
Al H****n was a Puma crewman first. Did all that has been mentioned and also spent some time flying the A109.
Cheers!
lsh

Despite which.................:}

(Worked a lot with Al, bl00dy good hand.)

Ah, LSH!

If you are the ex Puma crewman you spent a few trips in my LHS!

(Bark once for yes, twice for no! Ring any bells? If so, drop me a P.M. Unless the Xmas letter is on its way soon ;) )

"Tales of the Golden Monkey"
 

Centre seat mostly!!
PM sent.
(L)SH

Only when we tied a knot in your monkey harness to shorten it! :)

Could I possibly use this thread to ask a supplementary question that has always intrigued me. I remember as an ATC cadet, sometime in the 50's, seeing an airman with RAF wings working in the airmans' mess at RAF Lllandow.

I have always assumed that he was an NCO pilot who had been reduced to the ranks for some misdeanour. Could there be another explanation?

pulse1

A possible answer to your recollection may be due to the airman in question having re-enlisted after a period in civvie street. When back in uniform he would still be entitled to display previously earned aircrew brevets.

When I was at Colerne in 1972 there was a Cpl who wore an Air Gunners Brevet. I asked him about it and he said he had been demobbed at the end of WWII and re-enlisted in the early 1950s. As an aside, the UTP and the SWO at Colerne at that time both wore the Pathfinder eagle. The UTP was a Sqn Ldr Walsh but the SWOs name is lost in the mist of time. Both good eggs though.

Aircrew Brevet
 

In the early eighties SAC Brian H****n was in ATC at Manston, wearing an ALM brevet.
He had done the 6 months on the Sqn that were required to earn the brevet but was subsequently remustered out of the trade.
They changed the rules pretty quickly after that and you had to attain "combat ready" status on a Sqn to qualify.
lsh
(monkey harness and bar!)

We had two airmen aircrew student navs in 1961. One, at least, was ex-AEOp, Brian Wiggins. I think he went back to the kipper fleet. The other, Bill Cairns, completed the nav school and then was given a commission. As he had been through the whole nav school process, I am not sure what else he did, but I think it was a quick conversion.

I think the first RAF pilot I met, at least the first I met who was in uniform, was a Corporal. A Corporal Steward serving lunch in the Officers' Mess at RAF Silloth. I won't say when :)

Not that it helps with the original question but I'm sure that I remember a Master Pilot at Finningley circa 1987.

And what a Gentleman too..

I seem to remember him being interviewed about the time of his impending retirement by some young lady reporter asking how did he feel when after flying all the other pilots went to the Officers Mess and he had to go to the Sergeants and his reply was not printable :hmm:

He once in a while regailed some of his wartime flights and If memory serves me right he mentioned returning of one mission shot up and lost with wounded onboard when the runway lights came on, upon landing the lights suddenly went out and a German Halftrack appeared out of the dark guns firing............. he said although he had no idea what was in front of him he just nailed the throttles fwd.

He was presented with a Solid Silver Wessex on his retirement...

Was there not a ex Master Pilot as the SWO at Odiham at the same time who had came to that position Via ATC?
I had arrived as a young impressionable LAC from training at the Guardroom, knocking on the hatch this face appeared and asked me if I knew anything about growing tomatoes, which took me aback somewhat ( he was having some problems with his in the greenhouse around the back of the Guardroom)................ Invited in and having a cup of coffee made by him I enquired of one of the Guards who he was to be told it was the SWO !!

Another Taff Walker story I recall was when a young ATC cadet seeing the wings on his chest asked of the Master Pilot, “Excuse me sir but I thought the lowest rank you could be to fly an aircraft in the RAF was Pilot Officer”. To which Taff replied, “It is laddie”.

SWO
 

If I remember correctly he was an AG.
Nice guy, late 70's early 80's. (era not age!).

Replaced by a guy on promotion from Colchester!
Caused a but of dodging behind buildings, he did!!

Remember Dan Daly, Master Nav (Smirnoff + Bar)?!
lsh.

I'm certain there was a Cpl admin type at RAF Hendon in the 70's who wore RAF pilots wings. Jim Davidson was a mate of his.

It's ongoing, isn't it? AFAIK we're training NCO pilots every day. Oh, you meant RAF NCO pilots :}

There was a Master pilot at Boscombe early 70's, he brought me a replacement kinetheodolite camera up to scampton when the one we were using for trials broke. He arrived in a Valletta and SACTO went all dewey eyed
and entered the nostalgic mode

There was a Corporal AATC at Cottesmore in 1967 with Pilots wings and a chest full of medals, he had re enlisted after previous service.

I remember a Master Pilot on the Lightning sim at Binbrook in the 80's, who was an absolute gentleman. When I arrived at Gut in '79 there was a old Cpl on 18 sqn who wore an AG brevet and various medal ribbons on his battle dress (most of use had thunderbird jackets by then) At Valley in the '80s, the walls of STCAAME (sic) were littered with pictures of hoards of NCO pilots alongside their Javelins which went out of service in '68.