I completely understand why there should be dispensation not to wash the car.

I completely fail to understand why this dispensation should be rank orientated.

I thought we'd lost the 'batty' approach outside of the mess.

Indeed.

Doesn't the AP3003 (don't groan at the back) mention that when the RAF was formed the 'us and them' approach as seen in the RN and Army was frowned upon by Trenchard, wishing instead to have a force of professionals rather than a class based system?

Aren't we in the modern RAF in more enlightened times?

I'm not suggesting that officers and SNCO's do a spell on SWO's gang or that we are some kind of workers utopia (comrade) but by God people, we're talking about a Sqn Ldr washing a car!

We all bleed the same colour blood and outside the gates and out of uniform you are no better or worse than any other plebe out there.

I pity some of these attitudes. Oh how you shall tumble to earth with a bang one day when you re-enter the real world.

OverTq. Totally agree about the whole washing car thing but I find the us and them (lords and servants) idea that you long for totally out of date and downright rude. Your Sqn Ldr of 30 years experience is certainly to be respected for all he has achieved and experienced but no more so than a 'servant' non-commissioned rank such as Chief Tech or above.

People take certain paths, many of my colleagues and friends; I hasten to add, are front-end crew and as part of the deal, have to be officers. They are professionals and I respect them for that. I myself chose the non-commissioned route (and yes I was a very high achiever at school before some to$$er says I should have done better,- I’ll take you on at qualifications anytime!;) ). I like engineering, I am blinkin good at it, and my flyboy colleagues respect me for that as the professional that I am. Now times have changed, the Air Force has moved on. You would be surprised how educated us 'servants' now are, often more than .... wait for it...some officers. So stop this utter crap that officers are better than airmen and get out and meet the workers before you make offensive and ludicrous remarks

Oh sorry, just remembered your still a wannabee, who left the Air Force ten years ago and still wants a bit of the action. Thankfully we are better off without you.

Tourist
 

As I don't know you, Secret doesn't actually count as a Aircraft type. I took from your posts that you were a trench digger. Well you sounded like one!!:ok:

Strikes me that the min point of this thread is that to clean the car was a requirement laid out in orders. Whether the car was MT or Lex if orders say it has to be returned clean then that is the way it should be returned. As far as i'm aware, nowhere does it say obeying orders is a choice when a certain rank is achieved. To many people seem to think they should be entitled to choose the tasks that they so readily take the pay for. :\ :\

TWOL8. Well said :p

The simple point of having large quantities of low ranked people in the Military pyramid is so that the menial jobs can be carried out by people they are more suited to. ie people who should have tried harder at school.
And don't tell me that you were very sucessful at school but chose not to be an officer. That just shows a lamentable lack of confidence/ambition

And that post shows a total lack of reality. Get with modern times wannabee

Tourist,
you,re still straying off the point, MT Orders. If the RAF had the manpower to allocate all the 'menial' tasks to JRs perhaps the MT orders would have been different.... but as they weren't it's a case of stop moaning and pick up a sponge!!!!!!!

Only certain trades are entitled to overalls and other PPE. Has the sqn ldr, or any other B class driver undergone the appropriate car cleaning course?

Have the hazards associated with getting up close and personal with that type of car been pointed out?

MT driving rules also apply.

His working day starts at the time he/she picks up the car. It ends after 1 hours (I think) hard limits. He may drive for up to 9 hours with statutory breaks.

Clearly if the call to wash the car came after 11 hours duty he could state that he was now 'in-rest' and would attend to the task at the next available time on duty. If he agreed to wash the car, MT would be required to drive the car to the wash area for him.

I am not making this up but H&S and EP are mandatory and you would be crucified for breaching their rules. Use their rules to your advantage.

I am more than a little surprised at the vitriol my original post has generated. I have never had an 'us and them' mentality, and neither does the S/L I referred to. I simply feel that some 'erbert in MT (probably a civvy) who is paid for looking after their vehicles should do the job. Same applies if the driver in similar conditions had been an SAC - IT'S NOT WHAT HE'S PAID FOR. As far as me being a 'wannabee' (whatever that is, 12 twists per inch), just 'cos I left 10 yrs ago doesn't mean I don't still work for them and am glad to do so. Wouldn't wash the damn car myself, though!

.... I believe this statement is known in legal circles as the "Nuremburg Defence" ....;)

Ah, all becomes clear! Used an MT vehicle last week, fine hire car it was too, very fast and shiney. On returning said vehicle, spotty LAC asked "Has it been cleaned and refuelled?" Answer of course was "NO and NO, its parked outside feel free to go and do it for me, here are the keys". Wonderful thing delegation. Who writes the MT orders anyway, probably the same buffoon that insists on personnel doing the BFG tick test before a det to France.

This has absolutely nothing to do with 'us' and 'them'.

The nub of the question is, if MT don't drive the cars, don't wash them, don't refuel them and send them back to Lex for servicing .......what the :mad: do they do???? Just because you are an SAC/E Grade civil servant, it has nothing to do with why you should be doing your job. You are paid to sort out the MT plot and associated tasks - you can't just pick and choose which crappy parts of the job you don't want to do. Otherwise,next time you're off on det, after 3 days at Cerney and a 10 hr flt, you might just find yourself on the line refuelling the jets because other people don't want to do their job after you have cluttered up and used their ac :E

All in all, surely a candidate for leaning if ever I heard of one if they refuse to look after their own section's assets; leave all the keys on a rack in the Guard Room and with the money saved allow people to refuel / wash at the local garage. Any snags, take it up to MT who will have been leaned or amalgamated with GEF for the one remaining bloke to flag up the fault with the car to Lex / GEF.

Bit of a pyric victory for the proletariat me thinks. Grenade thrown, donning helmet and waiting for incoming turnips and such like.

The whole thing is symptomatic of the "cut corners and dump more on those in uniform." Cars should be washed by someone employed to look after cars rather than someone whose job is something else, regardless of rank. There is an entire civilian industry based around car washing, valeting and servicing and someone employed in this role will wash the car to a higher standard than someone back from a meeting.

Perhaps this is something to do with civilian contractors cutting corners and overheads to bump up profits...

I agree with that fully, I can't see how having a separate trade for doing what every other trade (except Pers Admin possibly) does as part of its normal duties is cost effective, but that not whats being questioned here. Whats being questioned is when does a person attain such a lofty position that they can pick and choose which orders to comply with?

When you can rewrite them, obviously.
You are missing the point though.

THS

Probably the best reply to that one came from one of our squippers when I arrived on sqn. Had to get some patches put onto uniform and was told that for officers and aircrew, the squippers would do it for them, while the rest of the sqn would have to do it themselves. I did ask about that and the NCO stated that the officers and crews had enough niff-naff and trivia running the sqn to have to sort out minutiae like that so they would happily take one bit of crap of our plates.

And on reflection I can see his point. Your average junior rank comes into work at the appointed time, takes their breaks during the day in addition to lunch and then pokes off at cease work. During that time, they do exactly what they are trained and paid to do. The officers and crews have all the problems associated with leading and managing, that the juniors rarely see - it is our job to divert the flak and triv so they can do their job. Given that,I think it is fair not to expect officers to have to do the triv job like washing cars. When the SAC Scroggs in MT wants to get involved with leadership / management issues, secondary duties and being expected to cover multiple jobs, all taken as being part of your normal daily duties, then I think its fair that I do the washing cars thing.

Nothing to do with a lofty status, all to do with responsibility held by those positions and the associated crap taking up all our time to start with. I'd gladly swap some of my duties for a quiet half hour washing a car in the sun!

Tourist

What an incredibly narrow-minded (almost bigoted) comment that shows a complete misunderstanding of the quality of airmen in the Service today. I visited the School of Recruit training last year and met airmen recruits (who will now be 'low ranked people in the Military pyramid') with degrees both at bachelor and at master levels. There are many like them serving throughout the Service. These people can hardly be described as 'people who should have tried harder at school'. I, on the other hand, was thrown out of school before obtaining any A-levels. Perhaps, I should have 'tried harder at school'; but, then again, I am doing pretty well at this officer game.

I am sure that when you were trying hard at school you learnt all about proper nouns - and how the word military isn't one of them.

What a searing indictment of our current "university" (read polytechnic:yuk: )system, that oiks can get degrees nowadays.

Alternatively rather than squabbling over the Officer/Aircrew/Airman divide find out which prat allowed the 'driver washes car' cr@p, shoot them, and renegotiate the contract - simple, everyone happy. NO-ONE should have to wash a hire car - do Avis expect such service from the punters at LHR?

BTW, if anyone should get perks it should be aircrew of all ranks IMO, us 'guins (be they Officer or Baldric) can get on with the niff-naff and trivia allowing them to perform the duties the organisation is designed for.
er.....am I beginning to sound like BEags?

Quite funny, one of my bosses tried the old 'should have worked harder at school' banter when we were having a heated debate, it was then he found out I had a 2:1 which trumped his 3 in Applied Origami - I still wasn't bright enough to make officer :{

Just a reminder though, this wash your own vehicle is NOT new. 'twas always thus as far back as I can remember.

Usually the order was honoured in the breach and not the deed. Can't remember a sqn waggon pre 1980 being washed. Remember being astonished at a JO in 8 washing one. Then in the late '80s at Waddo - drive to Germany, drive to Zeebrugge, ferry to Felixstowe, drive to Waddo, wash vehicle.

Really we should have just shoved it through the local car wash. Then again, do you ever get a good clean on your own car, in winter, after dark?:}

Tourist

So what is your degree then and from what university?

I think that's the problem though Pontius, it's a left over from RAF MT days pre-contractorisation – bin it, obsolete, like officers wearing spurs

If I am tasked to travel on service business and instructed that it must be done in a 'service sourced' vehicle, then as far as I can see said source should arrange for the appropriate actions to be carried out upon the vehicle's return; will they be expecting me to change the oil and brakes next?

However, if HM allows me to use my car and reimburse my travel costs, then it's my vehicle and I will wash it when, and if, I want to (or will I not be able to claim mileage costs unless I can prove that it has been refuelled and washed).

Not expecting to have to wash the damn thing does not show a lack of respect for colleagues of a lesser rank. It is trivia that I certainly don't have time for - you only have to look at the state of my private car to see that!

Of course the obvious answer is to install automatic car washes at the entrance to every MT section (there'll only be a few stns to worry about in a few years time so it won't cost a great deal of taxpayers money) and then the car can be washed while you sit in it to complete the necessary paperwork.

Where, oh where is this organization going? (maybe they should add an annual VMT (vehicle maintenance test) to go with the everything else- 3 returned dirty cars and it's an admin discharge!)

Climebear, I find the supposition that I might have a degree frankly insulting!
Degrees, as I am sure you are aware, are either for those unfortunate individuals born without sufficient family means to secure them a suitable commision, or revolting social climbers that don't know their place.
I'll have you know I'm neither!:E

Tourist

Or perhaps you just didn't try hard enough at school.

If you are ever given the priviledge of commanding other ranks - I hope for the sake of your Service that nobady has given you it yet - I hope you realise that respect is a 2-way street.

[quote=Melchett01]THS

During that time, they do exactly what they are trained and paid to do. When the SAC Scroggs in MT wants to get involved with leadership / management issues, secondary duties and being expected to cover multiple jobs, all taken as being part of your normal daily duties, then I think its fair that I do the washing cars thing.

Isn't that the job that officers are "trained and paid to do"

you cant have it both ways!!!!!:confused: :confused:

Social Climbear
You really need to relax your grip on the hook
http://bestsmileys.com/fishing/1.gif

Tourist,

Perhaps Climebear is just worried that someone who thinks like you may actually be in a position of authority. !!!:(

Perhaps the answer is to follow the procedures I believe the army use (and Helpful Stacker feel free to correct me - assuming you and the Helpful Stacker on the "other" rumour service are one and the same you are ex-army after all).

I believe they do not allow officers to drive as, should they dink a vehicle the only ("legal") recourse is a CM whereas a driver (ie soldier) can be (at the moment) charged. As said officer is not driver he is thus not responsible for the cleaning!

Not an ideal soloution granted, but one that means MT do their job and ageing sqn ldr can have a few pints at lunch to recover from the trauma of being strapped in a rubbish skip, in the dark, tipped upside down in a swimming pool and told he has to wait for all the other occupants to vacate the skip before moving.

:ok:

Tourist

I'm quite happy with my social position.

Perhaps you need to tighten your grip on reality. By the way, does the atmospheric mix on earth effect you when you are visiting?

Overtq,
You misread me!
I meant that MT should do their job and wash the bloody cars!

rej has probably hit the nail on the head when he refers to contracts.

IF the contract says that vehicles will be returned to the contractor is a particular state then it would be quite in order for the contractor ro request that it be done and, if it is not, complain to the CMT. It is not for a civilian contractor, albeit ex-RAF MT perhaps, to demand said sqn ldr, or SAC, to do the cleaning.

Check with the CMT and find out exactly what the MAC says about MT deliverables etc.

Pontius,
It is not for contractor to request said Sqn Ldr to clean the car, but it is for said Sqn Ldr to do as laid out in orders. There is a fine line between too busy and just being lazy, or thinking that type of taek is beneath you.

TWOL 8 - I think you still miss the point. This guy had been on the road since 4am, had a hard time in the Dunker (if you don't know what that is, you're lucky) driven back up the M5/6 - in best/ reasonable clobber, then gets grief for not washing the festering car. I can't believe the RAF has come to this. Contractorisation is probably the major culprit, with jobsworths doing their thing, but I still believe there is a pecking order and expecting this individual - in this situation- to set to with a pressure washer and foam brush when returning a vehicle to MT to be 'beyond the pale'! Rant nearly over. OverTq