New Pension Scheme
 

Has anyone any details of when the announcement of the new pension will be available. I thought that we would have been given the information by now. Were we not promised an individual assessment showing the 'benefits' or not of the new scheme.

The FPS 2005 will be available on or around the 06 Apr 2006. It is here now..in effect, as all those joining the services from that date will be on that scheme and has therefore been enacted by parliament. All the details are on the MOD web under JSP 764 or 794..I believe the former is the one. There are 4 Parts to the doc and gives you all the rules, formula's etc and detail you need to make a reasonable calculation.

All those on FPS 1975 will have the option to transfer between Sept 05 and Apr 06. You will have to decide which is best for you. Your admin staff can only advise you and should print out forecasts for both schemes.

Be very careful..you will only benefit from the 05 scheme IF you can be guaranteed service until age 55. Any departure before then, you will end up with an EDP and a preserved pension at 60 or dependant upon time served..not a lot!

If you are a long time server and looking at film star pensions on the 75 scheme..suggest a word with or join the Armed Forces Pension Society.

OOoops..I lied slightly..preserved pension should read 65!! ..not 60:O

In fact all those who have joined from this April are on AFPS 05..just to confirm that everyone else must decide by Apr 06.

TAC 2 - you can make a quick calculation on the 05 scheme very simply.

Assume you have given 25 years service. Take the best 365 days wages from last 3 years service, say 30K x 25 / 1/70 = £10,714.

If you serve to 55 with 35 years service; take 50% of best 365 days in last 3 years = your index linked pension. 3 x the total is your tax free lump sum.

EDP calculation is based upon 18/40; 50% of 50% preserved pension with 3 time sthat as a lump sum, until 55 when it goes to 75% and then full pension at 65.

Now I remember when the Miltary Salary was introduced - before we had free food and lodging and were paid peanuts.

Within an hour of the signal arriving another arrived stating that the new arrangments were in abeyance for WRAF Officers and RAF Officers below FLT LT.

The reason? The new deal resulted in a massive pay CUT!!

MC

Beware generalizations, while this may well be the case for the majority some other could benefit. Especially those who joined before 18 (airmen (a term that includes NCA)) or 21 (officers) as service will be counted from the say you start rather than a birthday. In addition, personnel who are paid at a higher rate than the representative salary used for AFPS75 could benefit. So if you are a FS/MACR on the higher pay band who joined when you were 16 there could be a benefit.

Finally, the new scheme offers enhanced benefits for your surviving partner (most wives survive their husbands). Whether you take this into account or not depends on if you care what happens to them when you shuffle of this mortal world.


Good advice on consulting the Armed Forces Pension Society. We had a very interesting talk by the retired General that heads it which highlighted the points above. If anyone is considering this they should seek proper financial advice (which is something that the Service is not legally allowed to provide).

I was entreated to join the AFPS but they illustrated the 'massive' loss served by a Brigadier because of the date he left the service and the huge pay rise that followed.

I wrote and said that I had little sympathy with the Brigadier who was still getting a massive pension compared with mine. I also benefited, with a birthday in April, from having my pension based on the latest pay deal.

I got a very nice letter back from the General agreeing with my points and conceding that it was not a one size suits all deal. He agreed that the 'new deal' would disadvantage everyone as the pension would be based on x/12ths of last years pay and y/12ths of this years where x+y=12 and not on the whole of this years pay.

I was still caught in the end however as I retired in October so my next pension rise was factored on percentage increase for that year.

You can't win.

Climebear,

Not a generalisation about 55 I'm afraid.

To gain the optimum benefit from AFPS 05 scheme from Apr 2005, you still need to serve to 55 ("normal retirement age")... i.e. those that have joined since Apr this year! You can no longer retire on a pension below the age of 37. Hence EDP and income (as opposed to pension from 18/40).

Individuals who elect to transfer from AFPS 75 will carry over some additional service eg complete years service from day of joining from 16 - 18 and 55 + to a max of 40 years = 1.6667% increase in PP. There may well be some real crusty's on life support machines who qual.

PA Spine / PES (A) qual persons will benefit (enhanced daily pay with IDD, incorporating flying pay at the time of transfer to the spine = film star annual wage, therefore 50% calculated for IP) providing they; time qualify for PA /PES (A) and are 55 or over.

55 is still the gotcha even on cross over. Hence my amber caption!

If you are; 40 + with 18 years service and considering an alternative career that will offer a second pension scheme and comfortable wages (e.g. airlines). It may be worth looking at transfer to AFPS 05, taking EDP with lump sum, knowing you have a tax free savings scheme in place, with lump sums at 55 and PP at 65. EDP is after a "retention pull through" (as quoted in the JSP 764).

The in service death and child benefits et al, are self funding from the reductions in PP until 65, incremental EDP etc. The AFPS 2005 is to be cost neutral.
If you cannot guarantee to hit the big 55/35, take a look at calculating benefits under AFPS 75, taking any Resettlement / Life commutations, Terminal grant and buying additional death benefit (as recommended by the AFPS on thier visit to our station) if you want to provide for the ball and chain :E

But once again I recommend the AFPS.

So what happens to an RN Officer on the FTC (Full Term Commission) who, if a Lt Cdr or below, has to retire at age 50?

!"
 

Had a very interesting brief on the new scheme and in the margins afterwards when asked about the pro's and cons go the reply
"Well I won't be changing over. The benefits of enhanced Death In service et al comes from a reduction elsewhere. The review and changes are cost neutral and the sting comes from a reduction in real terms of pension payments!"

The personal examples (if we ever get them) may be revealing - or more likely concealing!!

Oggin,

It\'s like the A25 song - the landings piss poor and you can\'t swim!

Oggin..have a good look at your benefits under both schemes first. But the problem we have found, is that every individual will end up with slightly different outcomes. Date of join, age, length of service, final salary etc etc, all need to be calculated.

Without knowing any more detail and if you (the party example stated) have to go at 50..remaining on the AFPS 75 may prove more beneficial.

There is a lot of rubbish being talked about concerning the new pension scheme, but here are a few points to consider and maybe educate some.

My understanding is that those people with the option to change to the new scheme will be receiving some paperwork in July, including I believe a personal assessment, with 3 months to come to a decision.

Do not forget that the new scheme was not designed for the benefit of people already serving, rather for new entrants off the high street. Having said that, that does not mean that some people serving, though not all, will not benefit from joining AFPS 05. I remember when the PA spine was introduced people saying "... the MOD will never change our terms of service for the better...... it must be all about saving money..... there must be a catch somewhere.....you are bound to be better off staying Spec Aircrew...etc". However, the PA deal was better, and I am very happy on it thank you!!

Back to AFPS 05. There is a very good schematic diagram of the new and old schemes (a picture paints a thousand words..) in the March 2005 edition of AMPlify, page 30. Yes, the benefits of the new scheme increase the longer you serve, and reach a maximum if you stay in until 55, but that is not to say it is a disaster if you leave earlier than then. As Muff Coupling says all the information is available on a series of MOD web pages. The calculations to work out your own situation are simple enough, but somewhat boring.

Taking myself as an example, PA spine aircrew. Say I left the RAF at 50. Lets examine my pension payments under the new and old schemes (yes I had to make some assumptions about pay rises in the next few years - I AM NOT 50 YET!!)

AFPS 75

Pension on retirement £22,100 Gratuity £66,300

Pension payments 50-55 5 years at £22,100 (no RPI)

Pension payments 55-65 10 years at £22,100 (RPI up lift and linked)


Total payments 50-65 £66,300 + £110,500 + £221,000 + RPI addition = £397,800 + RPI component



AFPS 05

"Pension" on retirement £26,200 Gratuity £78,600

EDP payments 50-55 5 years at £17,500 (66.7% of £26,200 no RPI)

EDP payments 55-65 10 years at £19,600 (75% of £26,200 RPI uplift and linked) + at 65 second tax free lump sum £78,600 plus RPI


Total payments 50-65 £78,600 + £87,500 + £196,000 + £78,600 = £440,700 + RPI component.

I have not gone into the RPI side of things, but it would appear that by age 65 I am some £40,000 better off under AFPS 05. And every year I live past 65 I am a further £4,000 (+ RPI) a year better off. True, I might not live to 65. It is also true that I do not get as much money up front with AFPS 05 as I do with AFPS 75, but am I planning on retiring at 55 or working on to 65? If I die before my wife 60% of £26,200 is better for her than 50% of £22,100.

So there are a lot of variables to consider. When I expect to leave the RAF, will I carry on working, do I need more money early on in retirement, how good is my health, does my wife have a pension, etc, etc..... These are my particular circumstances, not yours.

I guess my point is that there is a lot more to it than, .."the new scheme is no good unless you stay in until you are 55..." Do your own sums, take advice where you can, but form the informed, and then make your own decisions, hopefully wisely.

I asked this question in a previous pensions thread - I don't think a comprehensive answer was forthcoming.

From what I currently understand, EDPs from 05 replace the IP from 75. In order to qualify for EDPs you have to serve to a minimum age 40. Our current TOS do not allow us to serve beyond 38, unless assimilated onto PAS.

This APPEARS to mean that as things stand, those who have yet to reach their 38/16 point, who transfer to 05, and do not get assimilated, will get NOTHING AT ALL - at least until age 65 when full pension becomes payable. Comparing this with 75 which will give a pension of approx £11k at OF2 level, I cannot see how 05 could possibly be a good deal for anyone under 40.

Am I completely wrong about this? Or are changes in our TOS forthcoming to move 38/16 to 40/18?

16B

Biggus,

Thanks for the info. Now, let me see if I've got this right - please correct if I'm wrong. I'll use current figures and only look at pilots, but I think that similar principles apply to WSOs, Rear Crew and NCO pilots:

A Specialist Aircrew Flt Lt (if there are still any) retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £24000 a year under the old pension system or £24750 under the new pension system.

A Sqn Ldr (not in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine) retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £24000 a year under the old pension system or £24750 under the new pension system.

A Wg Cdr retiring at age 55 on the top pay band would receive £31100 a year under the old pension system or £32000 under the new pension system.

However, a Flt Lt in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine would receive £33600 a year if he/she joined the new pension system and retired at age 55!

Is this too good to be true? Are you sure that aircrew in the Professional Aviator Pay Spine will be invited to join the new pension scheme when the paperwork is passed around next month?

If so, apart from personal satisfaction, what incentive will there be for aircrew to work hard and get promoted? I know that they would earn more whilst they are serving in a higher rank, but unless they get promoted to Gp Capt they wouldn't ever match the pension they would get if they retired in the PA Spine! Would all the extra stress, paperwork and ground appointments be worth it?

Just what are the odds of reaching Gp Capt these days anyway?

So my 32 years of bouncing between the cockpit and the bar with no time to do OCC/ISS/C Exam or secondary duties might finally bear fruit :-)

LFFC

First of all, as PA myself, I have only really looked at my own situation. A quick look at some of the information I have has provided the following however:

AFPS 75 "...... an index linked pension worth 48.5% of representative pay......"


AFPS 05 ".... a pension worth 50% of final salary after 35 years......"

Therefore aircrew Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs etc on AFPS 05 will recieve 50% of their final salary (which INCLUDES FLYING PAY!!) if they retire at 55. While I am not fully aware of Wg Cdrs pay rates I am sure a senior aircrew one earns more than £64,000 when you include flying pay (I have just checked, £64,000 is the basic pay - having trouble finding current Wg Cdr flying pay, but it was over £10,000 in 2003).

But yes, the pension at the top of the PA spine (pilots only get there) is a bloody good deal!! As for incentives for working hard, promotion, etc. First of I think all retention on the PA spine is likely to become very rare, and one will have to be hard working and well above average to achieve it. You can't just drift along and expect to make PA. Secondly a career animal is just that, and will consider the rewards worth going for without being over concerned about pension rates.



Note: The PA pilot pension may be bloody good, but the best pension deal in the country is the one that MPs have - there is a surprise!!

Biggus
 

.

Not the way I see it, unless I'm mistaken. '05 pension figures quote that the final pension ''... includes X factor, but excludes allowances or specialist pay''.

Good deal therefore for PA folk on the new scheme who stay till 55 and have pension based on ALL their pay!

Lockstock and Just this once....

It would appear that you are both correct, in that 'aditional pay', e.g flying pay, is indeed not pensionable under AFPS 05. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

I posted my reply to LFFC early this morning, when I was in a rush to get to work. The quotes I gave were from the only document I had immediately to hand, and are taken straight from the source (the articule in AMPlify). They are correct quotes. However, the phrase used in the MOD pensions website refers to '.. pension based on final pensionable salary (i.e excluding additional pay)...' for AFPS 05. That one word pensionable making all the difference. Indeed one of the questions in the Q & A portion directly asks about additional pay, and the reply makes it clear it is not pensionable. So I was wrong in my statement, apologies.

I am sorry if I have caused confusion. I am PA spine myself, and have only looked at AFPS 05 from a personal view, as indeed I suspect most people have/would, rather than an overall one. If that makes me sound 'jack' I'm afraid I haven't got enough spare time to become a pension expert for everyone. Hopefully my point, that people need to look at the new pension based on their own individual circumstances, and it is not necessarily bad news for all, is still valid!

LFFC

I am on a multi engined fleet with a large range of ranks within the crew, maybe even the same fleet as yourself, and recognise most of the extremes you mention. Unfortunately the RAF has always had disparities of pay within the same aircraft, which does not of course make it right. My pay and pension conditions are better than some, maybe most, of the people I fly with, but not as good as all. There are inequalities within the PA system, e.g maximum levels various trades can reach on the spine, but I have to live with what is on offer. While it may again sound 'jack', I did not create this situation, but given the option of selecting better terms of service (e.g the switch from Spec Aircrew to PA, the possibilty of an improved pension scheme) I defy anyone not to go for what is best for them. Indeed I would encourage anyone to do so. Encouraging people to select the best pension option for themselves was the reason I started writing on this thread in the first place!

Nice to see all you guys waking up to the complex, and sometimes unattractive, reality surrounding the new pension scheme offer. Personally, I think the whole pay. additional pay, allownaces and pension system is rapidly turning into a dog's breakfast. Is it good for unit cohesion? Definitely not, but neither was the first split of flying pay rates, which started the rot. However, for those who shed doubt, there is no reason to believe that current PA wil not recieve the full pension offer.

Ginseng

Biggus,

I think you got Just This Once and I mixed up; I'm not in the multi-engine fleet. But thanks for taking the time to answer, I'm not surprised that you made a mistake this morning - the whole issue is quite unclear at the moment and I'm struggling to understand it as well.


Lockstock,

Yes, that's the way that I see things too.


Just This Once...,

I don't think that there are any proposed changes to the treatment of flying pay for Career Spine aircrew with regard to pensions. However, as PA Spine pay does not include any "allowances or specialist pay", I'm assured that all of it will count towards pensionable final salary.


Specaircrew,

Yes, it certainly does look like you've hit the jackpot - personally, I think you deserve it. But I wonder how all the Career Stream aircrew, who may have worked even harder than you to fit in all that OCC/ISS/C Exam stuff, will feel if they don't get a chance to move to the PA spine too? I feel very sorry for them and won't expect too much sympathy (or much else) from them in the future - but I'm sure that senior officers will rise above that sort of thing!


Ginseng,

I agree with you - it certainly looks like Mr C*ck-up has paid us another visit! I guess this is yet another example of two "initiatives" coming together to produce a management nightmare!

Biggus and Co....just to add fuel to the debate.

I hear that the Army have already been through the hoops on the issue of PA Spine sic Flying pay et al.

I hear that they have a few pilots who have gone onto PES (A) (RN / RAF equiv of PA Spine). Some have reached or will reach top of the spine when AFPS 05 scheme kicks in. If the JSP calculations are correct, they can walk with a Gp Capt equiv pension as Majors (Sqn Ldr)! EG - Daily rate + Enhanced rate of Flying Pay on transfer to PES (A) = same daily rate as Gp Capt on promotion in 1st year.

However, these guys/gals must have completed 5 years on PES (A) and retire at 55.

Understand that they have already asked the system..you only need to be on AFPS 1 day to qual for it and for full benefits. So retention scheme pfaff..age 55 in 08, top level on spine...resign faster than Labour can raise the higher tax bracket and jump ship! I suggest that once the bean stealers cotton onto this one..selection / transfer to spine will become a tadge harder

:(

I've been thinking about how all this might impact the RAF - it seems to me that it will certainly change a few things! For a start, I would expect that all PA Spine aircrew will opt for the new pension scheme and go for the extra £10000 a year pension and £30000 gratuity.

I was under the impression that someone on the PA Spine who PVRs would revert to the Career Spine pension. Or is that only true for the old pension system? If that is the case, then we can expect those already on the PA Spine to stick around until their retirement at age 55 - so I hope we chose the right people. Whilst that will be really good for retention, it will make it really hard for anyone else to assimilate at age 38 - if it hasn't become difficult enough already.

Career Spine sqn ldrs will be watching this of course and realise that they now have little or no chance of returning to flying duties unless they get promoted. But in a shrinking RAF, they will have little chance of further promotion unless they are really good and got promoted to sqn ldr in their 20s or very early 30s.
So I expect that a lot of them will stay on the old pension system, pull the plug quite quickly and build a new career in the airlines. And who could blame them after all their hard work had been so blatantly overlooked?

But all of this will be just another of those "transitional challenges" that will disappear over the next decade. But then again...


Just This Once...,

I'd be interested to know if your colleague, who is obviously aged between 35 and 38, decides to accept promotion to sqn ldr or goes for the PA Spine as a flt lt. I hope that he realises that his chances of promotion to wg cdr are extremely small due to his age.

I hope you're not implying that the RAF is ageist LFFC? Well we all know the reality don't we!!

As you say, assimilation is becoming very hard at present. I know of someone who even went off and did the Aerosystems Course, but even with that under his belt, it's looking like the RAF won't be keeping him in.

It's all very short-sighted though in my opinion. I've never heard so many people talking about getting out as I have at the moment; most wouldn't want aaimilation even if they were offered it. I can see the wheels well and truly coming off the bus sometime in the next 5 years. TELIC dragging on and on seems to be proving the final straw for a lot of people. I wonder how many of them have been getting the "It's the RAF or me" ultimatum.

Biggus
 

I have been examining your calculations earlier (8 Jun post at 21:33). I think you have an error. Your EDP calculation assumes that, after retiring at 50, your EDP would increase to 75% of preserved pension at age 55. It will not. All that will happen is that the RPI uplift will be applied (and backdated) to your 67% from that date. You still come out on top, but not by as much as you think. And, of course, if you don't live to collect the second lump sum at age 65, the balance of the sums reverses. Beware of false assumptions - this is more complex than you think!

Regards

Ginseng

Oggin,

As regards the Naval Officer (or anyone else) retiring before 55 - its an EDP for you until age 65, then preserved pension. There is no other compensation for your terms of service forcing you out.
The same applies to those retiring before 40, or with less than 18 years Reckonable Service. In your case it is - No EDP, preserved pension at 65.


Muff C

There you go with that "Group Captain Equivalent Pension" nonsense again! It is good, but not that good! No Group Captain I know retired on a pension calculated on his "on appointment" rate of pay. This is because, in AFPS 75, you only need serve 2 years in the rank to achieve the pension based on full Representative Pay for that rank (and it increases on a sliding scale between 0 and 2 years). Do you know anyone who was promoted and retired the next day? Spin and headlines can be very misleading, and are sometimes intended to be, to create a bigger impression than they deserve.

Ginseng

Zedder,

It wouldn't matter if I did imply that the RAF is ageist - ageism is allowed in the armed forces - at the moment. Think about all the military Equal Opportunities questionnaires that you've filled in, and anything else on discrimination in the forces. There was never a section on age discrimination was there? That's because it doesn't apply to the military - yet!

We all know about the policy that a sqn ldr won't get selected to attend the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) once he/she is aged over 43 and you also have to have had a couple of good tours as a sqn ldr before you'll be selected. As promotion to wg cdr is pretty much dependant on being selected for the ASC, it's therefore very unlikely that you'll make it beyond sqn ldr if you haven't made that rank by the age of 36. So any offer of promotion to sqn ldr in your late 30s is condemning you to life in the Career Spine but not actually offering you a career in which you can advance. Take away the possibility of transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine and life will become pretty dull!


Just This Once...,

I think you're being a little negative, but I wouldn't disagree with you too much. I'd have said, "Promotion to sqn ldr much after age 32 is now regarded as retention negative - so beware".


Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive.

LFFC Said

"Mind you, there is an easy way out of this mess. Give all Career Spine sqn ldrs automatic transfer to the Professional Aviator Spine after they reach age 44. That would be a bit like the old option to leave at age 44 if you hadn't been promoted to wg cdr by that age. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will get another flying tour (as some on the PAS have recently found out) but it would be retention positive."

The only trouble is that "Career" and "Professional Aircrew" are, from my observation of life in the RAF over the last thirty years, totally incompatable. PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.

Ginseng

http:/www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/new_afps/edps.htm describes the Early Departure Scheme on a question and answer basis. The answer to the question "What happens to the EDP at age 55?" is given as:

"The income stream will increase to 75% of the value of the individuals accrued pension entitlement and will then be adjusted to take account of the changes in the RPI since the point at which the EDP was originally taken and thereafter on an annual basis until age 65."

There are even specific examples in a table later in the same document, showing the figures for a Sgt, WO1, Major and Lt Col all retiring at their 40/18 point which all show the rise to 75% at 55.

I therefore believe my calculations to be correct. Reference your point about not living till 65, I made that very same point myself if you reread my 8 Jun 21:33 post. As you say, and I am fully aware of, it is a complex issueand everyone has to make their own assumptions and decisions based on their future plans and expectations!


LFFC

Reference the point you made about somebody on the PA Spine who PVRs. I don't know, I will go through my PA Spine file later, what happens when you PVR, but one point to note is that AFPS 05 is "....based on an individuals best 365 days pay during their last 3 years of service."

I don't see how they could change your pension scheme if you PVR as PA Spine, those rules were written long before AFPS 05 came along. They might make you revert to Spec Aircrew, as I said I have yet to check on that, but presumably if you were out within 2 years under AFPS 05 rules you would still get a pension based on a previous year on the PA Spine salary, i.e all your pay in that year as PA Spine counting as pensionable?? Any thoughts??

Strange that most of the RAF students on the current ACSC are already wg cdrs and that there are more promotions to wg cdr each year than there are places on AST/HILAC then!

There is legislation emerging within Europe to prevent discrimination on the grounds of age. However, the UK identified this early, lobbied fellow armed forces and managed to get an exemption for the Armed Forces written into the legislation at drafting stage within Europe. It also managed to secure the continued Armed Forces' exemption from the employment provisions of disability discrimination legislation in Europe. Something that the Maragaret Hodge , aptly the MP for Barking, was trying (unsuccesfully) to get removed from UK legislation. You can see her point, I suppose, I mean the Royal Marines do have wheelchair ramps on the front of some of their boats!

These are real exemptions written into legislation. Therefore, they are not like the ones we thought we had in the 70s/80s when we (on legal advice) belived we were exempt becuase the Military Procurement had an exemption from European competition rules.

__________________________________________________

PAS is for those who are good at their flying jobs and not those
who have dicked everyone else trying to make Wg Cdr.
___________________________________________________


No longer true.

I was told by my posting officer that to be assimilated as PA, I had to demonstrate the same qualities to "The Board" as for promotion. He intimated that it was for those who did not quite make Sqn Ldr.

So, to get promoted, you have to do pointless secondary duties well.

To get PA, you have to do pointless secondary duties badly.

If you are a good pilot, get yourself all the flying ticks, and concentrate on your primary role, you might as well join BA now!

Ginseng..please read my post properly.

If a Gp Capt (Army full Col equiv) and Maj Army pilot on PES (A) (as Army pilot Lt Col's must revert back to CS) are both on AFPS 05...the PES (A) Maj at IDD level 35 will earn the same annual wage as a Gp Cpt in 1st year on apointment in that rank. By definition AFPS 05 IP is calculated on 50% of best / final 365 days salary in last 3 years service.

You have hit the nail though..the Army Maj can walk with a Gp Capt pension (calculated on wage in year 1 as above) once qual for AFPS 05 (1 day to qual) with 5 years on PES A from Apr 03. The Gp Capt currently on AFPS 75 has to do 2 years min in rank to get IPP at rep pay.

If he/she were to be on AFPS 05, he/she could be promoted to Gp Capt and retire 1 full year later at that wage, as the pension will be calculated on last 365 days salary of last 3 years service. So by a bu++ers muddle of 2 overlapping pension schemes, age, rank date, promotion date, retention scheme date, different service dates..my point is in fact correct.

Sometimes nonsense has a habit of becoming fact!

Indeed..I hear that the Army equiv of pay blunties initially said "nonsense..a Maj cannot get anywhere near a Col's pension"..er, ooops yes they can.....the green eyed monsters are out!!

Biggus,

Sorry, but I think you have been mislead by the description of an increase to 75% at age 55. What it means is that the percentage of preserved pension that you would receive as an EDP increases on a linear scale from age 40/18 years service, to age 55 (minus 1 day!), the age being your age on date of "early retirement". Therefore, if you retired aged 54 years and 364 days, you would receive ten years worth of 75% EDP ( but uplifted for inflation from first day in retirement), then full preserved pension at 65. Retire one day later (at age 55) and you receive your immediate full pension. It is an unlikely scenario, I know, but that distinction is there.

Muff C,

I have to say I see your point, and apologise. Perhaps I got confused with the widely mis-described "Group Captain Pension" used to sell the PA Spine deal when it was originally floated. Would you accept, however, that it is incredibly unlikely that a Wg Cdr/Lt Col would be promoted to Gp Capt/Col with one year or less to serve to age 55, so I still claim that to make comparison with "Group Captain on Appointment" pension rates is illusory.

As for the affect of PVR from AFPS05, this would of course mean "early" retirement, and hence payment only of the appropriate EDP until age 65. Whether PA/PES(A) would be held to complete the original 5 year committment from Apr 03 without further sanction, I do not yet know.

Regards

Ginseng



Added Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Biggus,

Dammit, I am going to have to apologise again! Alarm bells rang and I delved in to JSP 764 Part 2, where the answer stared out at me from Para 0209 on page 2-3. You are right, the initial EDP is increased to 75% of the preserved pension, and index-linked, from age 55. Glad to set the record straight. You have destroyed my credibility on this forum - Well Done! Perhaps I should shut up now.

Regards

Ginseng

Stan Bydike,

I think you're generalising a bit much there, I know a lot of really good operators that have been promoted to sqn ldr and fallen into the age trap. Moreover, whilst I agree that there may be some aircrew that do all the good officer "ticks" and manage to get promoted quite quickly, they do tend to be quite sharp operators as well. I think what you are trying to say is that there is no substitute for experience - if so, I agree with you!


Biggus,

That's the problem with the PA Spine; it was all written with respect to the old pension plan. The only reference I can find regarding PVR from the PAS (AP 3393 Vol 2 Leaflet 1810) suggests that if you PVR, you will receive only the "Service Retired Pay paid on PVR that is specified annually by MOD". To me, that indicates an intention to penalise you for retiring early. However, I like your point about the new pension being based on the best year of the last 3 years of service - I can see some interesting disputes over the horizon.


Climebear,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that candidates are boarded for the Advanced Staff Course (ASC) prior to being boarded for promotion. The results of the ASC board are then a major factor used in boarding for promotion to wg cdr. If people are excluded from the ASC because of their age, then surely it follows that it affects how they score on the promotion board too. So their promotion prospects must be adversely affected! Yes, I know that places on the ASC are in short supply - but that's not really relevant.

But as I said, I know that we are exempt from legislation on ageism - for now.

Has anyone seen any figures (or tables as per AFPS 75) concerning the purchase of added years in AFPS 05? If I stay until 55 I will only have 32 years reckonable service rather than the 35 required to receive 50% of best year of last 3 years salary.

AFPS 05 appears to allow you a maximum of 40 years reckonable service. If you purchase added years to get to 40 years can you significantly boost the pension? If you can does it make financial sense to do so or could you get a better rate of return elsewhere?

Any answers out there? (other than get some time in sonny!)

Flo

AX F
 

Yes, you will be able to purchase added years over the remaining part of your service up to age 55. I believe though, in keeping with the current scheme, the maximum increase you can buy will be that required to bring you up to 35 years reckonable service at normal retirement age (provided this keeps you within Inland Revenue limits). I do not believe you would be able to contract to buy up to 40 years, since you could not guarantee to serve the extra time at the time of taking out the contract. The extra 5 years above normal retirement age must be attained by extra time actually served. That is my understanding (until someone proves me wrong again!). The reference for added years is JSP 764 Part 1 Chapter 5 (Paras 0501 to 0518).

Ginseng

Ginsing,

I believe Biggus is right, If "I" retire at 50 (on the PA spine)
having joined at 16 my EDP is based on 50% of preserved pension at 40 plus 10 times 1.66 (call it a total of 66% of preserved pension). At 55 my EDP is increased to 75% of my preserved pension plus RPI....At 65 I get my pension plus the "other lump sum"....Thoughts?

Scotch B
 

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, YES

Please don't ask me to repeat my grovelling apology above. Once is enough!

Regards

Ginseng, the well known spelling mistake

Attention All Readers
 

For another significant factor to consider, ivolving redundancy term structures announced in parliament on 21 Jun, see the new thread "More Cuts Coming", started by JunglyAEO on 22 Jun.

Ginseng

pension schemes
 

Seems to be a fair bit of confusion and obviously individual cases will differ significantly.

Any ideas on where there are tables showing comparisons, or is there someone out there with the knowledge, and willing, to turn some of these details into a simple spreadsheet?

Oldfella
 

Sorry, Mate. There ain't no such thing as a "simple spread sheet" for this one! Read your OTT pack very carefully. They start sending out on 18th July; it could take 2-3 months for all to arrive.

Regards

Ginseng

Most confusing thread.....there seems to be lots of variables to the AFPS. The one good thing about it all is that whether you go for the new pension or remain where you are, a pension of at or about £30k PA is bloomin fantastic....thank you Your Majesty.

VVHA
 

Now I really am beginning to think that you are a Government plant. Or am I being paranoid?


Keep spinning. But beware. You may end up in knots.

Regards

Ginseng

Im sorry.....How much pension do you want? Whats wrong with £30 pa for goodness sake?