Best stay on '75, stay on the career stream and hope to get promoted when everyone else leaves having had enough. Then '75 is quite a good deal!

... unless of course they make a shed load more people redundant when the new carriers are cancelled :(

VitaminGee,

You need to watch out. I hear that the RN have all but stopped extending the service of aircrew Lt Cdrs over the age of 50. If that happens to someone who's in AFPS05, they would take quite a big hit to their pension.

It will be interesting to see in a few years time just how many aircrew Lt Cdrs in AFPS05 actually serve to age 55!

Some Calculations
 

In case anyone is interested in an estimate of the potential relative merits, or otherwise, of AFPS05 compared with AFPS75, I tried a series of calculations to compare one with the other for 2 canned examples, retiring at a range of ages between 40 and 55.

I apologise that these illustrations cover only two of many potential profiles, and are currently limited to Officer ranks, and exclude PAS aircrew (whose position, I think it is clear, is rather different to everybody else).

These examples are for 2 Officers, each of whom joined on his 18th birthday. One reaches the rank of Flt Lt/Lt/Capt and proceeds to the highest pay increment for the rank. The other is promoted to Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr/Maj on his 37th birthday. Both serve initially to age 40, at which point the Sqn Ldr has just completed 3 years in the rank.

If they now both retire at age 40, then their total accumulated pension value paid to age 65, assuming 3% year-on-year inflation over the years to age 55, once all lump-sums are included (but ignoring the affects of taxation, which will vary between individuals) are:

Sqn Ldr: AFPS05 value = 78% of AFPS75 value. At age 64, prior to payment of 2nd AFPS05 lump sum, AFPS05 value was only 65%.

Flt Lt: Same comparison: 84% (was 71% at 64).

Neither can reach parity between the 2 schemes unless they live to at least 100.

For retirement at 45:

Sqn Ldr: 82% (77% at 64)
Flt Lt: 90% (75% at 64)

Parity point assessed as being in the very late 80s.

For retirement at 50:

Sqn Ldr: 86% (69% at 64)
Flt Lt: 81% (65% at 64)

Parity point about mid 80s

For retirement at 55

Sqn Ldr: 108% (difference equates to about £26000 in total value)
Flt Lt: 104% (about £10000)

This profile was chosen to allow the extra 3 years service, and the potential to exceed 35 years Reckonable Service in AFPS05, to have an effect. It demonstrates that for these particular individuals, the cross-over point does occur, but only very close to the age 55 point. No account has been taken of improved benefits elsewhere in AFPS05, the value of which individuals must assess for themselves.

These examples do not reflect any particular individual. They are provided to assist understanding of the intent of AFPS05, which is not only to pull people through to age 40, but to fundamentally redistribute the balance of pension income from those who leave in mid-career towards those who will serve a full career. They also demonstrate that any claim that the payment of the second EDP lump sum at 65 fully restores the balance at that point is bogus, although it does clearly reduce the deficit considerably (if you are prepared to wait for it).

Regards

Ginseng

PS: I should have made it clear that all values are estimated in 2005 £s, having been calculated from 2005 pay and pension scales. The AFPS75 pension rates used are the reduced rates for exit by PVR for all ages under 55, as is most appropriate for a fair comparison.

Ginseng - ta for the reply.

Re "thinking of you all re my PAS pension": I had planned to leave the Service at my IPP - the PAS + AFPS05 put paid to that - despite being the holder of a new "frozen ATPL".

Cash was not the only reason however...service offered to Queen n Country still appeals for some reason...and you just cannot beat the mil cameraderie...

Gulf War 1; now February after 3 months or so deployed:

Nimrod Air Eng: I'm so homesick and fed up I think I'll go and hang myself.

Other crew member: Well don't swing too much - you'll make yourself sick.

Another crew member: ...and we'll have to clean it up...

Regards:)

Covec
 

I agree. If I didn't still find enjoyment and satisfaction in it I wouldn't still be here. Oh, plus the fact that I'm probably unemployable anywhere else!

Regards

Ginseng

LFFC
 

Thanks for the concern. However, it is not a case of "extension" in my case. PAS in the RN manifests itself as the Full Term Commission (Aircrew) or FTC(A) with a normal retirement age of 55.

If they wanted to stop me going past 50 they have blown it - by just over a year already!!!:D :E :D

VG (determined to cling on for another 3 yrs and 361 days!!)

I take it that you have not taken up the retention bonus, otherwise you will need to repay that if you leave before 22. The principal of signing on to the new pension scheme and claiming your EDP at 18 years is sound as far as I am aware.

Calli, JTO
 

All very good questions. Sorry, but I am not going to try to answer them for you as I do not feel sufficiently well clued-up on NCA Terms of Service, and I would not like to say anything which might prove to be wrong (I know, that hasn't stopped me in the past!). The best suggestion I can make is to wait for your OTT pack, run the various scenarios through the on-line calculator (which should be available at www.mod.uk/issues/pensions from Mon 18 Jul) and then take your questions on TOS to your Chief Clerk in the first instance. Clearly, you need to get definitive answers in order to be able to make an informed choice.

Regards

Ginseng

The calculator is up and running. If on PA Spine you need to follow the specialist table line, know the date you transferred to PA and your expected final pay scale.

hey, thats a good calculator. Apparently, if I were to make Admiral I will leave with a golden handshake of £249,000 AND an annual pension of £149,000. Phew. Now, How do I get to be an Admiral????

Calculator is on the MOD Website .

Just used it and found that if I leave after 22 years and live to 75 then I will be down £140K if I changed over to the new scheme.

Not a hard decision to make then!

Thanks for the link. I've just gone through various combinations of exit date, rank etc and assuming I live to be 80 I haven't found a single instance where I am better off under the new scheme.

As you say, not a particularly difficult decision to make.

Well, the calculator arrived on the advertised date and, as far as I can tell, works correctly within the stated limitations. It is disappointing that, for the most part, it will only cope with whole years of reckonable service, particularly as the PAS/PES(A) portion has to use the number of days as PAS to calculate the AFPS75 PAS pension enhancement correctly. If this could be included, I don't understand why the rest could not be developed to calculate for uncompleted part years. What you need to do is force the calculations for the whole years above and below your retirement date, then apportion the difference (number of extra days/365) and add the extra figure to the total for the lower number of years. I also found that, when I included dates which involved a fraction of a year, the calculation was rounded down for AFPS75, but up for AFPS05, producing a comparison which appeared to be the opposite of the truth (although the reason for the difference was visible). Be aware also that it cannot calculate for less than 2 years in the current rank at retirement, and that for commissioning from the ranks it will assume that at least 5 years commissioned service have been given at retirement. For PAS/PES(A), it is not possible to obtain a correct AFPS75 calculation directly for a level above the bar for a specialisation, as these levels are not offered in the menu, but the AFPS05 calculation will be correct if you use the pilot's menu and specify the appropriate level. The AFPS75 calculation alongside will not be correct, because it will be based on the pilots' daily enhancement rate. With those limitations in mind, happy calculating!

Regards

Ginseng

Well I played with the calculator and with option points at 41 and 44 I would consider that I would have to be stark raving mad to change to AFPS 05.

Granted that if I stay in 'til 55 AFPS 05 will equate to an extra £700pa at age 55 and another £2k on the gratuity, the financial loss with an early departure don't appear to be worth the extra few quid if I stay. Comments please.

Calli,

You must have 2 years service left to transfer onto the 2005 scheme. This might be a shocker to some!

I only found out at a OTT brief recently. Effectively, if you have less than 2 years to your ROD, you will not be able to go across. I would suggest that if you have PVR / resigned prior to transfer date you will not be eligible either. :uhoh:

Muff C
 

Sorry, but I really don't understand where that comment comes from, and I think you may be confused. You have to have a minimum 2 years of service (from your original date of joining) to establish an entitlement to most AFPS benefits (for example, an initial preserved pension value). That point is common to both the AFPS75 and AFPS05. I am completely unaware of any restriction on transfer to AFPS05 if you have served less than 2 years at the transfer date or have less than 2 years left to serve. As far as I understand it, the MoD gave the Parliamentary Select Committee on Defence an undertaking that all those personnel currently serving in AFPS75 at the transfer date would be eligible to elect to transfer to AFPS05 at that date if they so wished. If anyone knows different, I would be happy to hear from them.

Rej

You just noticed the gamble with AFPS05. Will you stay long enough to benefit a little, rather than potentially lose a lot? And of course, it all depends on the greatest unknown - how long you will survive in retirement.

Regards

Ginseng

Can anyone help with the following scenario:

I transfer to new scheme and for some reason leave before age 55 thus entering into EDPs, lets say age 50.

Then I snuff it for natural reasons (eg heart attack) before the age of 65 and getting the proper pension and associated grant.

What would my wife get? Would she still get the pension lump sum (that I was going to pick up at 65)? Would she get a pension based on my years service immediately, or would she have to wait until I would have been 65 to pick up any benefits? Would she have to pay back anything (or have any money abated)?


I have tried to read the documents but get completely lost.

Muff C,

I think the bit you may have seen is that you must be serving on 6 Apr 06 to be eligible to transfer to the new scheme. There are also some clauses regarding those on rendundancy terms.

Has anybody seen a link (or actually used in anger) to the online pension calculator yet ? I have tried to follow Ginseng's link, but I have had no joy.

Thanks

C130JB

C130 bloke,

Try one of these two links

http://83.138.137.164/pensioncalcula...isclaimer.aspx

or

http://www.mod.uk/issues/pensions/pe...calculator.htm

The first one should take you straight to the disclaimer screen. I have used the calculator without any problems.

Unmissable
 

The situation you describe would be treated as a"Death in Deferment", because your EDP is not a pension. Your real pension has been preserved at your date of retirement, and payment defered to age 65. Hence my understanding (although you must get this confirmed) is that your widow would be paid your age 65 pension lump sum and her widow's pension (based on your preserved pension) from your date of death. She would obviously need to know how to go about claiming the pension and what proof of your date of death and previous service would be required, so make sure you find out and leave clear instructions where she or your executor can find them.

Regards

Ginseng

JTO
 

No, you can't! If you think that is frustrating try this one for size:

In Feb/Mar 2003 a Spec Aircew Sqn Ldr could have been offered entry to the PAS on inception at 1 Apr 03. If he decided to turn it down on the basis of the information provided at the time (say because the increase of pension for PAS in AFPS75, though attractive, was insufficient to offset the other changes in terms of service and employment profile), he will now find that he cannot benefit from the even greater pension increase on offer to PAS by transfering to AFPS05, even though that second increase was not part of the offer on the table at the time. Moreover, the second ARR briefing pack stated specifically, in writing, that any new pension scheme in the future would only impact on those joining after the new scheme came into force. This was not contradicted by any material published prior to 1 Apr 03, at which stage the details of AFPS05 were unknown and the legislation had not even been introduced to parliament. Moreover, he is now not only in a far worse position than other Spec Aircew Sqn Ldrs who transfered to PAS, but also the Flt Lts who did the same. And, in future, he will see any Sqn Ldr who has transfered to AFPS05 and is then offered the cross-over to PAS being able to accept the offer knowing that it will mean the full AFPS05 PAS deal!

Food for thought!


Muff C

I have checked today, and there is no minimum requirement for remaining service to transfer to AFPS05. You need to transfer in a minimum of 2 years previously served in AFPS75 (or another employer's scheme) to qualify immediately for all applicable AFPS05 benefits from the transfer date. The bottom line is that all those in service on 6 Apr 06 are eligible to transfer, whatever the remaining period of their current engagement. You were either misled or misinformed.

Regards

Ginseng

JTO
 

Yes, I take your point. And then there is the odd guy who may have had an offer of Spec Aircrew promotion in the pipeline when the PAS offer came along. The transfer terms required him to forego the promotion and go back in the pot with everyone else in order to go PAS. His alternative was to keep his promotion but stay as Spec Aircrew. Three years down the line he finds that he has been given an even bigger shafting. I know at least one person that this happened to. I don't think anyone intended these things to happen, but the combination of these two offers has produced some bizarre results. No doubt we are expected to accept that they should be seen to work in complete isolation from each other, but the reality for some people is VERY different.

Regards

Ginseng

Yet more in the PAS vein. Does anyone know where you stand with regards to the OTT and the resultant move of the EDP to 18/40? I accepted PAS terms, due to start next year at my 16/38 point, but if I accept the AFPS05, does that mean that starting PAS is deferred until the 18/40 point? Am I in the same boat for the FRI2 as well. I asked the pensions hotline where a very nice lady told me it was complicated and she didn't know...

Any help out there?

Compressorstalll
 

I don't know, but I can't see logically why your entry into PAS should be delayed. If you are committed to the minimum return of service, that would take you past the 18/40 point. I think it is possible that any offers made in future will be based on transfer at the 18/40 point, but that is a matter for the service personnel staffs. I think the same arguments should apply to the FRI, which also carries a minimum R-o-S condition. Good Luck.

Regards

Ginseng

I have just gone through the pensions calculator process and plotted a graph of the results from age 45 to 55.

Being PAS I am better off under AFPS 05 except for about 2 years between 45 and 47 years old. What is really interesting is a little spike on the graph at age 54. It appears that, assuming I live to 75 years old, my total pension income under AFPS 05 is some 16000 more if I PVR at 54 than if I retire normally at 55.

Anyway, interesting stats aside, it appears that I can't afford not to switch to AFPS 05.

Flo

Ginseng & Just This Once ......

Full realisation of just what has happened to sqn ldr aicrew in the Career Stream is just beginning to bite.

I met an old friend at Fairford over the weekend who candidly told me that accepting promotion to sqn ldr was the worst move he'd ever made. Whilst he accepted that he'd enjoyed his command tour and has earned more over the last 4 or 5 years, had he known what was planned for PAS pensions he would have rejected promotion, continued flying and happily served until age 55.

Unfortunately, because the PAS is so lucrative, PMA have more than enough "older aircrew" and even though he's an A2 QFI, PMA won't transfer him back into the PA spine. As his promotion prospects look bleak, he's decided to leave the RAF and join the airlines.

He told me that he's far from being on his own...........

He laughed uncontrollably when I told him about some of the old oxygen thieves that are being posted back to the sqns because PMA can't find anything else for them to do!

LFFC
 

I'm afraid the Law of Unintended Consequences knows few bounds, especially in politics!

Regards

Ginseng

Ginseng,

I am one of those who had the choice of staying as Flt Lt and being allowed to transfer to PAS OR accepting promotion to Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr (and no PAS). Trusting the system and proud to having finally being picked up for promotion, I chose the promotion.

What a mistake to a make! Not only have I dipped out on my pension but I now have to chose whether to stay on AFPS75 or transfer to 05. Now here is another problem-I have a reduced flying med cat and Glasgow have sent me a prediction of my Life Commutation HOWEVER I cannot find out by how much, if any, of this Life Commutation may be reduced by until I have my release medical in 3 years time-I could lose the lot potentially.

So in short, I have 3 months to make a decision but I don't have a vital piece of the information ie how much my life commutation would actually be-how can I be expected to make this decision without the full picture? And, no-one is prepared to help and worse still does anyone care.

OKOC
 

What a bum*er. You genuinely have my sympathy. All I can think to say is that AFPS05 offers no commutation except the opportunity to reverse-commute, i.e to trade some of your lump sum back for an increase in your annual pension. Not sure it's much help, but it might allow you to see the two schemes in perspective for your circumstances.

Regards

Ginseng

OKOC/GINSENG

What can they do to you if you decline to make a decision until you have the full facts, can they "make" you chose ? Surely you can only decide when you have all the facts.

timex
 

Well, you have to take it on trust, of course, that you have the correct facts. Hence my earlier comment about the second ARR briefing pack. For those who don't have the reference handy, I quote from Page 3, "PA Spine Pension".

"The PA Spine pension arrangements are still being developed. However, current pension arrangements are being reviewed as part of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme Review (AFPSR). Currently, the AFPSR team is recommending that we move from our current scheme, which is based on representative rates of pay, to a final salary scheme. Should this recommendation be implemented then it is important to remember that this will only impact on future Service personnel who join the AFPS after the new scheme is in place."

Regards

Ginseng

The answer to your speciifc question is that if you do not return an election form, you will, by default, remain on AFPS75.

I've just had a go on the Pension Calculator and I must admit it seems a decent bit of kit for once. The figures it churned out for AFPS05 were very similiar to those I had worked out using a spreadsheet/back of a fag packet.

However, there seems to be one small glitch - I haven't yet moved onto the PAS, but if I enter my 38/16 point at the entry to PAS date (i.e. in the future) and run the calculation it appears to use the Spec Aircrew daily supplement (currently 52.3p per day for navs) instead of the full Flt Lt PAS rate (currently 86.0p per day for navs). As a result, by my figures, it underestimates my pension on AFPS75 at 55 by some £2100.

D4R

Just received the offer to transfer pack with the personal benefit statement. The statement appears to be completely misleading and does not agree with the online pensions calculator.

I am PAS and the pension at 55 appears to be calculated as though I retire on the same PAS level as the one I am currently on.

Consequently it appears that AFPS 75 is a better deal if I serve to 55 (by 1000 pa and 3000 lump sum).

If I run the calculator for PAS level 35 and retire at 55 then AFPS 05 is a much better deal (by 4000 pa and 12000 lump sum).

Am I missing something, is the statement in error, or has it just been produced in an incredibly confusing manner?

Any thoughts Ginseng?

Flo

Axial Flo
 

I haven't received my pack yet, but my guess is that the Personal Benefit Statement is calculated for your situation today (or at 6 Apr 06), with the calculator then being available for you to explore various future profiles. After all, the "system" cannot know for sure when you will finally retire. The calculation may not even have been done at this year's pay rates, and will have been produced a little while ago.

At least, that's the only way I can make sense of what you describe.


D4RP

The "Specialist Aircrew" daily supplement in the PAS Pay tables is only for the Army, who have certain types of people they refer to as Spec Aircrew. It is not Spec Aircrew as the RAF knows it, since it is nonsensical to have RAF Spec Aircrew on PAS terms. This might be the source of the confusion (its not something I have come across). Double check that you are making all the correct Service, Rank and Unique Pay Table selections. Come back if you can't sort it out and I'll take a look.

Regards

Ginseng

Ginseng........thanks

Another Q, why dont they mention index linking on the calculator for AFPS 75?

timex
 

Because the effect of any index linking would be merely to preserve the value of the payment in 2005 pounds (or whatever year the calculation has been done for), which is what you are being shown. Of course it does mean that payments which are not index linked (EDP prior to 55 and AFPS75 pension prior to 55) will reduce in value for each passing year after retirement. It is left to you to judge the affect that inlfation may have on your payments throughout early retirement.

Regards

Ginseng

Ginseng, once again thanks.

Ginseng

Thanks for the quick reply. I spoke to the Pensions People and they agree someone on the RAF PAS should never get the Spec Aircrew supplement.

I have double checked my entries in the calculator and the results are the same. In order not to completely compromise myself I have PM'd you with my figures and will be interested to see your thoughts.

D4R

D4RP
 

PM received. Wait. Out.

Regards

Ginseng

Added later:

D4RP!!!!! Check your PMs!!!!!!!!!