Ginseng,

Message received and understood, thanks.

D4R

Not sure what all this P-M'ing is covering but I'm PAS and my transfer offer illustration does not show the level of pension at 55 that I expected and it is nowhere near the pension calculator figure.

Background Noise

My post above concerns exactly the same problem. I spoke to the OTT service centre about it today. They said that the pension illustration is based on retiring at 55 but on my current (Apr 05 when they did the sums) PAS level. Clearly this makes no sense at all. In my case a 43 year old on PAS level 24 - how could I possibly retire at 55 still on PAS level 24? I couldn't unless I was assessed as well below average for the next 12 years and hence didn't get the annual PAS pay increment.

I also asked about the assumptions behind the AFPS 75 illustration. I think that is based on the representative rank related pension plus the PAS supplement.

The result is at first glance I seem to be better off under AFPS 75, but after doing the sums I am actually better off under AFPS 05 to the tune of 4000 pa (assuming I retire on PAS level 35).

I can only conclude that the offer to transfer personal benefit statement is at best confusing and at worst down right misleading

Flo

Pension Calculator Error Alert
 

All will now be revealed.

Down4Reprogram has found an apparent error in the calculator when handling AFPS75 PAS calculations for RAF Flt Lts (apparently pilots, navs and rear crew). Based on the figures he passed to me, I have confirmed that he correctly entered figures for a Flt Lt, assimilating to PAS at the 38/16 point, and serving to 55 (as a Navigator). The figures produced by the calculator seem to indicate that it had applied the wrong look-up table, calculating his AFPS75 PAS pension enhancement at the Army "Specialist Aircrew" daily rate, instead of the appropriate Flt Lt PAS rate. The calculated total was therefore a considerable under-estimate. He reports that this error also appears to occur for Flt Lt PAS pilots and rear crew (I have not yet checked this). The clue was in the labelling of the forecast for the expected rank at retirement, which was given as "OF2SPECAIR". The calculations that I had run for Sqn Ldr PAS were correct, and were labelled only "OF3". If you have run similar forecasts, check the labelling. For reference, for 34 years reckonable service in AFPS75, with 17 years as a PAS Navigator, the total pension should read approx £29,318 (£23,982 basic plus £5,536 enhancement), with a lump sum of £88,554.

Ginseng

Axial Flo, Background Noise
 

What you say about the Personal Forecasts now makes sense. They are clearly calculated on your current pay/representative pay levels but projected forward to the reckonable service you would have if retiring at 55 from that level. OK for a first order comparison between the two schemes, but ridiculously misleading as to your actual pension calculation at 55, even accepting that they can only be made at 2005 rates. I can see some scenarios where this would distort the true comparison between the schemes at that point. The moral is: proceed with great care and check by hand if you can. As we have just seen, even the calculator contains at least one serious bug, and there could be more yet.

Regards

Ginseng

There is a real push for the new scheme. Everyone, and I mean everyone, on the station HAS to see the presentation - even those of us who are ineligible because we're out soon – so I have to waste an hour of my life on something that has no relevance to me. Not for the first time, obviously, but I'm curious, why the compulsory brainwashing? Is it all a treasury lead plot to rob us of our rightful reward(s)? Or just bad man-management?

Maple 01
 

Are you leaving before 6 Apr 06? If not, then you are eligible. I don't think there is any plot. More likely, your local management are very keen not to be accused later of having left anyone out. I can't blame them for that.

Regards

Ginseng

Automatic Extension of terms of service
 

I recently ran through the pension calculator and ran into a statement that would automatically extend my terms of service if I opted for AFPS05.

I reach my 38/16 point in Aug 2010 and having served less than 18 years I would be daft to transfer onto AFPS05. However, on reading the definition of EDP, I discovered that it states:

"If your current terms end at the earlier of age 37 (38) or 16 years service, you will automatically be given the opportunity to complete additional service to the new 18/40 point if and when you transfer to AFPS05 terms."

Having not noticed this anywhere else in the literature I ran the OTT people to clarify this point. They were also unaware or where this was clarified! The best they could offer was that I make sure that if I transfer I should ensure I get the offer to extend from my Desk Officer.

Can anyone help me out on this point, is it pukker gen?

Also, I am keen to be assimilated and two extra ACR's may help, however, even serving 18 years and retiring on AFPS05 this would apparently (according to the pension calculator) leave me a lot less well off in pension payments.

Many Thanks

WTN

Got my offer to transfer in the post this morning.:p

Im stuffed.

Why? Because I have 18 months to do with no offer of PA.

So I have to stay on 75.

However, My bosses reckon I will be offered PA in Nov when the board sits (Now I see why they have delayed the PA board this year).

So I have to choose 75 or Im stuffed if I dont get PA.

And if I get PA then Im stuck on 75 rather than the better 05 when I serve to 55.

Bugger!:mad:

Well Travelled Nav
 

It is pukka.

Those on a 16yr/38 type commission will automatically be extended in service to 18yr/40 type commission should they opt into AFPS 05. So the upside is 2 more years work, the downside is that in most cases you still wont get as much had you left at age 38 on AFPS 75.

HTH

Oggin

Jambo
 

Jambo,
I would seek an extension to your offer acceptance date if I were you. They are expecting a lot of returns beyond the 3 month period due to OOA commitments and one or two other reasons. They should accept that your concerns are genuine and that there is a definite date (PAS Board) in the near future when you can make a properly considered decision.

Best of luck

A major change to your possible future pension and cashflow after a lifetime of service.

An online calculator that has flaws. An advice package that doesn't even try to look beyond your present salary level. An admin empire that will have great problems sorting out real advice for you.

A possibility of another change in the near future.

Never mind, read the possibly flawed advice and make your decision. Get it wrong and tough, you cannot change, it's your fault, you made the decision.

Man management????? It makes you want to weep.

Jambo Jet
 

Is it true that the PAS selection board has been defered to later than the normal date this year? If it is, then I think that's disgraceful at such a critical phase of the OTT process, and highly suspicious. I think DPHs suggestion is sound, although I'm not sure they will play ball, although they should (in my opinion).

I'll be out of circulation for a couple of weeks now. Duty Calls. Best of luck to you all in the meantime. Perhaps by the time I'm back they will have fixed the calculator. Who knows?

Regards

Ginseng

Just this once...

I haven't checked the rest of your figures yet, but note that the online calculator seems to underestimate the PA pension under AFPS75 for Flt Lts if you PVR as well as if you stay to 55.

As far as I can tell Pilots/WSO(N)/Rearcrew Flt Lt's need to add 33.7p for each day they are on the PAS to the AFPS75 figures given. That equates to an extra £2091 pension if you stay to from 38 to 55. The PAS Sqn Ldr figures appear correct to me. I haven't checked the figures for NCA as there is no lower Spec Aircrew equivalent. The AFPS05 figures also look OK to me.

IMHO the PBS is good for ground trades, where there is little difference in the AFPS75/AFPS05 comparison between say a Flt Lt Level 6 and a Flt Lt Level 9. My own PBS shows a comparison based on standard Flt Lt Level 9, when in fact I would retire on PAS Level 30 making a huge difference in pensions etc. I suggest you look carefully at the figures yourself and try and decode exactly what it means to you. Personally I have written a spreadsheet to do the hard sums. A couple of people have asked me for a copy, but it quickly became apparent that there are wide variations in requirements - what if you have previous service to take into account, or joined the PAS later than 38 etc? So in effect it is unfortunately down to you to do the donkey work and sort out what is best for you and your family.

If you are still confused then why not speak to your "unit administrative staff" or the OTT desk, as recommended in your OTT pack up, to see if they can sort out these problems or even better sort out the errors in the calculator.

Good luck.

D4R

So, the calculator underestimates some PAS AFPS05 pensions? Why am I not too surprised!

Another dark thought just occured to me. The Armed Forces Pay Review Body routinely take pension arrangements into consideration when setting rates of pay. I wonder how they will react to a vastly improved pension situation for aircrew in the PAS? Once most PAS aircrew have signed up for AFSP05, a reduction in PAS pay might really hurt!

LFFC
 

Er...... No, actually. The calculator underestimates PAS AFPS75 pensions (for Flt Lt Pilot, Nav and Rear Crew).

Regards

Ginseng

Sorry Ginseng, I should have read the thread more carefully.

I suppose I'm just naturally sceptical that I'm going to get such a better deal without any catches!

Two things: I am beginning to smell a rat as EVERYONE seems be pushing us to transfer to 05-why?

Secondly, I got my personal predictions thru from the OTT lot and they had failed to fill in the "Specialist Aircrew" at line 3 under "rank" ie it was left blank. (I think this only affects the calculations though for the 75 scheme). So I rang them up to be told quote "does this matter-will this change the calculations?"

Are these the "experts" who we are relying on to enable us to make an informed choice-I am flabbergasted frankly and have no faith in their competence. Anyone else out there who has had this ommission? :confused: :hmm:

When the calculator had first come out, I did a number of calculations using it for differing times/ranks etc. I didn't read them i detail at the time just printed them off. A few days later I checked through them and I had enterred the same data twice on two examples. I cecked and rechecked the data enterred on the printout and they were identical, yet the pensions differed considerably. (I got other people to ceck to make sure I was not being dull and missing something.)

I wouldn't trust the calculator as it seems to give inconsistant readings, but it really is no contest anyway as AFPS 05 will probably disadvantage you in most cases if you leave before 55. It will in mine.

GB2:rolleyes:

A further fly in the ointment may be the possibility (according to today's BBC News) that HMG may, in the future, extend the Public Sector retirement age to 67 - thus delaying further the receipt of 2nd EDP and restoration of full pension for those on AFPS 05 who leave before 55. For consideration maybe?

VG

Anyone know where I can find details of the Medical Discharge payments on AFPS05. I will almost certainly be better off transferring but need to know MD details. My thoughts are ;

MD at age 49 on level 3-pension enhanced by 1/2 remaining service, an extra 3 years. Pension payed on exit in this case as if you left at age 52-is pension same as you would get at 65 and what about tax free payments?? Just one on discharge??

Thanks!

ToC,

There is a summary in mmp/124 "Your Pension Scheme Explained" which formws part of the OTT pack. This also refers the reader to MMP/125 -" Armed Forces Compensation Scheme" and MMP/115 - "Invaliding". The latter two are accessible off the MOD Intranet.

VG

On my way to have a look!!

Just got my OTT paperwork thru and it confirms that unless you are a committed lifer, you'll be better off staying on AFPS(75), especially if you commute the maximum available.

One of our best friends is a pensions expert and she confirms that fact too. Her advice is that unless you're a lifer, you would be crazy to leave the old scheme.

Remember, they wouldn't have changed to the new scheme if it was more expensive...

Don't agree!! If your PA then your pensionable salary will be greatly enhanced under 05. Obviously the later you leave the better you will be.

Of course, if you're PA that's true. I'll join the q along with everyone else!

Redundancy Payments
 

Has anyone digested changes to redundancy payments under the new scheme, ignoring the rights to cross back to 75 under the present 3 rounds. I had a quick glance at DIN 2005DIN02-093 and it seems that should you be made redundant in the future, the future is certainly not orange.

Just copied this quote from Talk Split on the other thread:
Ginseng - Any thoughts on this statement - I myself have not got my OTT pack yet and also have not seen this anywhere therefore cannot comment but am interested if it is true - certainly for those people not on PA spine now that subsequently transfer to PA spine this opportunity would be great.

Oggin

edit to say in all the briefing material I have seen it has stated that this is a one time only chance to swop schemes. If this is true I personally think it is slightly unfair as people's circumstances change all the time so through no fault of the individual they may decide to go with one scheme only to disadvantage themselves due to circumstances that change later on down the line.

Oggin Aviator/Talk Split
 

Oggin and TS,

My interpretation of that paragraph on page 7 of the orange book is that you have one option to join and one further option to re-join if you temporarily opt out and join a private scheme.

Your one option to join is now.

But thats only my opinion, although I'm quite sure that the OTT would have made it quite clear that you can defer your decision to any future time while you remain in the Services. I believe it doesn't offer deferrment (I haven't received mine yet, so standing on thinnish ice), but Ginseng will probably know more about this.


PS. I Just found the answer half way down the left hand column on Page 1 of the OTT Booklet, available at the MOD pensions website, here

It is quite clear that you have only one opportunity to join the new scheme. The orange book paragrah can be misinterpreted

I admit that all is not good. The OTT info is not the full picture, the online calculator is slightly inaccurate and the admin staff have little knowledge beyond the pamphlets but at least there is a choice.

The new pension system will come into force. All new personnel will be on it. Those of us who joined under a different scheme have a choice to change or not.

I understand that personal circumstances can change but there seems to be too much speculation by individuals about accepting 75 or 05 then deciding to leave early. No system will ever be produced that will enhance remuneration to those who do not fulfil their contracts.

Not sure that if you're a lifer and opting is a good bet either.
Received my pack yesterday and despite the calculator showing that if I stayed till 55 I would be better off on 05 (2K on the pension and 8k on the grant) my PBS, however, showed that I would be worse off on 05 by 1k/6k. And with 75 I have the chance for commutation and am not tied in to minimal funds if I pull the yellow and black.

As an aside, I have asked for guidance from PMA as I have been paying AVCs to up my In Service Death Benefit for donkey's years. With the transitional arrangements taking effect from 1 Apr 05, everybody automatically has 4 times the rate. I am still paying for an enhancement that is now everybodies by right, at least until a decision is made for 1 Apr 06. This anomaly had apparently missed the pay people and I am told they are trying to see how they can give me my money back.

Is anybody else out there paying for AVCs and not getting much joy ?

A still undecided 4f

Lockstock

VMT. Why couldn't PMA tell me this or direct me to the web site ! Hey Ho and spending my windfall on gadgets already.

4f

Ginseng - please check your private messages!!

Does anyone know how to buy extra years?

If you're on PAS but joined after age 20 you can't get the max possible AFP05 pension on retirement at 55, because you'd have less than 35 years service.

I have seen somewhere that it is possible to 'buy' extra years to make it up to the full 35.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for more definitive info on the when, where, how, whom...of going about this?

:cool:

TOG

2 interesting things to come out of the briefing that we had, which was attended by a civil service lady who had been heavily involved in the drawing up off the scheme:

1. Look at the figures if you are PAS and transfer to 05 then PVR a short time before the 55 point. Whilst the EDPs will be less than your pension until 65, the second lump sum more than makes up for this if you can stand the decreased EDP until then. On one typical scenario it led to an overall benefit of £60k. This was pointed out by the civil servaant and we were assured that the question had already been asked at higher levels and whilst it may appear to be a 'loophole' it is entirely legit and the administrators of the scheme are not trying to close it.

2. With regard to timings and how long you will have to make your mind up, it is unlikely that anyone will be chased before the end of the year. Apparently there is a significant cock up relating to the OTTs for the Army and they will not have to make a decision until later this year or early this year. Also remember that they cannot force you to make a choice and if you do not then you will just stay on the current scheme. This will be confirmed in writing in Feb/Mar next year so arguably if you haven't submitted a return you could argue the toss then...

detgnome

Thanks for that. I'm PAS and had spotted your first point - must admit that I'd found it hard to believe, so your post is quite reassuring.

Interestingly, if I PVR at age 54, my EDP a year later will be about the same as my pension would have been under AFPS75. So with a second lump sum and a much bigger pension at age 65, the decision to move to AFPS05 is a complete "no-brainer"!

:D

Lockstock,

Is the clock ticking? I am sure I read somewhere in the last day or two (maybe on an mod pensions website) that because of a delay (i.e cockup!) with the Army issueing their AFPS05 paperwork (it is triservice after all) all this talk of having to get your reply in within the next 3 months had gone out the window!

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

There are `bugs` in the written OTT projections that affect a fair number of people, including PA Spine Flt Lts, giving an incorrect (underestimate) assessment of the AFPS 75 benefits. The affected people will be issued with fresh, corrected OTTs. Clearly this will delay the decision making process. I have seen one e-mail suggesting that the 3 month `clock` will now not begin until 1 Sep 05 at the earliest. I didn`t find the OTT projection particularly useful because it uses `current` pay rates and doesn`t attempt to project forward to age 55?
The MOD `on-line pension calculator` is basically pretty accurate give or take £100 per year.
For what it`s worth, here are some comparisons for the benefits paid at 55 for a theoretical Flt Lt PA Spine pilot retiring at 55 with 34 years reckonable service, and with the maximum of 17 years on the PA Spine. I have used the 2005 pension and pay rates to do the following MANUAL calculations.

AFPS 75:

Flt Lt Spec Aircrew rate is £23982 with 34 yrs reckonable service.
PA `enhancement` of 17yrs x 365days x £0.707/day of PA service
is £4387
Total Pension equals £28369

AFPS 05:

Flt Lt PA Spine level 35 salary is £67175 (current ceiling for pilots)
Reckonable pensionable service is 34 years, so retirement pension is 34/70 x 67175
Total Pension equals £32628

So AFPS 05 `wins` by £4259 but of course there are other considerations too!!!

detgnome, LFFC et al,

Regarding PVR just before age 55 to ensure that you get the two lump sums under AFPS 05, a few calculations below show that the benefits are not as great as you might think.

These calculations are irrespective of rank, PAS or not ...

Pension at 55/65 = X

Retire at 55
Pension = X
Gratuity = 3X

Over 10 years to age 65 total benefits = 13X

Retire at 54
Pension = 75% of 0.97X (approximately) for 10 years
And 1 year at 50%
Gratuity @54 = 2.91X
Gratuity @65 = 2.91X

Total received over 11 years = 13.6X

On these figures I would suggest staying to 55 is probably the better option, certainly in the short term.

Y_G

However in the retire at 55 case, wouldn't you have to pay income tax on X for 10 years, so net value would be 10X - 20% = 2X, so net value is 8X. Therefore total value is 11X.

In the 54 case the 2.91X at 65 is tax free, and your tax liability for 10 years would be 7.25X - 20% = 1.45X, so net value is 5.8X. Therefore total value is 12.12X.

Hopefully I've got me sums right, but a Sqn Ldr PAS in the latter case would be > £30k net better off over the ten years to 65.

:cool:

TOG