RAF Air-Air Combat
Bluewotsit,
Pardon my spelling, in a hurry!
"No air threat to the UK" That's what I said 'cos there aint one!!
If you think there is, pray tell from whom? Who the hell is threatening us?
I still maintain that you can have as many AD roled squadrons as you like and you will not defend London from a determined hijacking attack. How the hell could the RAF do anything about it? If you get to the airliner before it hits what the hell do you do, shoot it down in flames? The result would be a large fire ball on central London, you'd merely have a catastrophe half a mile from where it was intended.
Of COURSE my comment about throbbing tandem rotor jobbies was tongue in cheek, how else does one refer to them?
Pardon my spelling, in a hurry!
"No air threat to the UK" That's what I said 'cos there aint one!!
If you think there is, pray tell from whom? Who the hell is threatening us?
I still maintain that you can have as many AD roled squadrons as you like and you will not defend London from a determined hijacking attack. How the hell could the RAF do anything about it? If you get to the airliner before it hits what the hell do you do, shoot it down in flames? The result would be a large fire ball on central London, you'd merely have a catastrophe half a mile from where it was intended.
Of COURSE my comment about throbbing tandem rotor jobbies was tongue in cheek, how else does one refer to them?
Last edited by pr00ne; 8th Jun 2003 at 09:05.
Matoman,
The extent of combat operations during the Indonesian confrontation is still politically sensitive. I looked hard to find evidence of the reported Javelin/C-130 incident, and of a 20 Sqn Hunter/MiG-17 manoeuvre kill, and while I have no doubt in my mind that both incidents occurred, I have found nothing but hearsay evidence to support either.
But then some years before that, I heard equally unsubstantiated rumours of RAF Canberra aircrew being detached to fly overflight missions of the USSR in B-45 Tornados borrowed from the USAF, and in U-2s, and even in specially modified RAF Canberras ('Operation Robin'). The B-45 and U-2 rumours have now been confirmed by real evidence, though at the time they seemed less plausible than the Indonesian stories.
The Israeli incident in which Tim McElhaw and others were shot down by IDFAF Spits is perhaps best described as being something other than air combat, since the RAF Spits were unarmed. There are suggestions that the Squadron subsequently took its revenge, but that this was 'hushed up' in order to avoid escalating the situation. When shot down, they had been misidentified as Egyptian AF aircraft.....
Archimedes,
Re the Lincoln: It would have had a job, since no live ammunition was carried on that sortie.
Re the Venom and the MiG: Heard that too, and the name of the pilot. Understood that it was hushed up because of where it happened......
Proone,
It's going to be six EF squadrons, so I'm glad to see you're going to restore the seventh. I'm puzzled as to how you're going to get seven GR4 Squadrons through to their OSD with only 140 aircraft, however. If you want to maintain OS and attack numbers you'd best keep the Jags and keep the F3s - even if you use the latter just for ALARM/TIALD/Vicon.
The extent of combat operations during the Indonesian confrontation is still politically sensitive. I looked hard to find evidence of the reported Javelin/C-130 incident, and of a 20 Sqn Hunter/MiG-17 manoeuvre kill, and while I have no doubt in my mind that both incidents occurred, I have found nothing but hearsay evidence to support either.
But then some years before that, I heard equally unsubstantiated rumours of RAF Canberra aircrew being detached to fly overflight missions of the USSR in B-45 Tornados borrowed from the USAF, and in U-2s, and even in specially modified RAF Canberras ('Operation Robin'). The B-45 and U-2 rumours have now been confirmed by real evidence, though at the time they seemed less plausible than the Indonesian stories.
The Israeli incident in which Tim McElhaw and others were shot down by IDFAF Spits is perhaps best described as being something other than air combat, since the RAF Spits were unarmed. There are suggestions that the Squadron subsequently took its revenge, but that this was 'hushed up' in order to avoid escalating the situation. When shot down, they had been misidentified as Egyptian AF aircraft.....
Archimedes,
Re the Lincoln: It would have had a job, since no live ammunition was carried on that sortie.
Re the Venom and the MiG: Heard that too, and the name of the pilot. Understood that it was hushed up because of where it happened......
Proone,
It's going to be six EF squadrons, so I'm glad to see you're going to restore the seventh. I'm puzzled as to how you're going to get seven GR4 Squadrons through to their OSD with only 140 aircraft, however. If you want to maintain OS and attack numbers you'd best keep the Jags and keep the F3s - even if you use the latter just for ALARM/TIALD/Vicon.
Jackonickers,
Officially still 7 Typhoon tea bag outfits, can't tell you how I know or I'd have to shoot you. Tranche 3 being canned would still allow for this.
You'll be harping on about the gun next?!!?
7 GR4 sqns will clearly NOT make it to OSD, even if FOAS is anywhere near on time. F3 with maybe ALARM/TIALD/RAPTOR could last a bit longer than any of us think. (or DLO plan)
BTW,
There were so many rumours about the Indonesian Herc floating around in my day, a FEAF Air traffiker of my acquaint was SO sure about it.........
Officially still 7 Typhoon tea bag outfits, can't tell you how I know or I'd have to shoot you. Tranche 3 being canned would still allow for this.
You'll be harping on about the gun next?!!?
7 GR4 sqns will clearly NOT make it to OSD, even if FOAS is anywhere near on time. F3 with maybe ALARM/TIALD/RAPTOR could last a bit longer than any of us think. (or DLO plan)
BTW,
There were so many rumours about the Indonesian Herc floating around in my day, a FEAF Air traffiker of my acquaint was SO sure about it.........
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RAF Air to Air Combat
Archimedes
You're absolutely correct the RAF did score a number of air-to-air victories over Egyptian Spitfires in 1948 and an RAF Lincoln was shot down by MiG-15s on 12 Mar 53.
Jackonicko
The rumours about the 60 Sqn Javelin v Indonesian C-130 have been doing the rounds for many years and, until those who decide such issues adopt a more pragmatic view of events long ago, sadly they are likely to remain unresolved and just rumours. The 20 Sqn Venom/Hunter v MiG-17 manoeuvre kill during the Suez War is interesting, but can hardly be an issue which needs covering up. Frankly it's time we had a FOI Act so that these and other issues can be cleared up once an for all, particularly the Canberra overflight of Kapustin Yar in 1953.
I think that a case of mistaken identity was the most likely cause of the 208 Sqn Spitfire FR18s v Israeli Spitfire IXs incident on 7 Jan 49, particularly as the Egyptians were equipped with similarly marked Spitfires. In addition, even though they were in effect flying as mercenaries for the IAF, the two pilots involved had flown either with or alongside the RAF in WW2 and would have been highly unlikely to have acted the way the did if they had known the correct identity of the FR18s. The incident later in the day when an unarmed RAF Tempest was shot down is harder to explain, as by then the identity of the FR18s must have been established. Then again, if the Israeli's were later prepared to openly attack a US warship such as the Liberty, perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised at what happened back in 1949. I would be interested to hear what the rumours are about 208 Sqn taking it's revenge - perhaps they shot-up the IAF airfield where the Spitfires were based and knocked a few out - I hope someone has the answer.
www.spyflight.co.uk
You're absolutely correct the RAF did score a number of air-to-air victories over Egyptian Spitfires in 1948 and an RAF Lincoln was shot down by MiG-15s on 12 Mar 53.
Jackonicko
The rumours about the 60 Sqn Javelin v Indonesian C-130 have been doing the rounds for many years and, until those who decide such issues adopt a more pragmatic view of events long ago, sadly they are likely to remain unresolved and just rumours. The 20 Sqn Venom/Hunter v MiG-17 manoeuvre kill during the Suez War is interesting, but can hardly be an issue which needs covering up. Frankly it's time we had a FOI Act so that these and other issues can be cleared up once an for all, particularly the Canberra overflight of Kapustin Yar in 1953.
I think that a case of mistaken identity was the most likely cause of the 208 Sqn Spitfire FR18s v Israeli Spitfire IXs incident on 7 Jan 49, particularly as the Egyptians were equipped with similarly marked Spitfires. In addition, even though they were in effect flying as mercenaries for the IAF, the two pilots involved had flown either with or alongside the RAF in WW2 and would have been highly unlikely to have acted the way the did if they had known the correct identity of the FR18s. The incident later in the day when an unarmed RAF Tempest was shot down is harder to explain, as by then the identity of the FR18s must have been established. Then again, if the Israeli's were later prepared to openly attack a US warship such as the Liberty, perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised at what happened back in 1949. I would be interested to hear what the rumours are about 208 Sqn taking it's revenge - perhaps they shot-up the IAF airfield where the Spitfires were based and knocked a few out - I hope someone has the answer.
www.spyflight.co.uk
JN, I wonder where I read that about the Lincoln carried ammo? I'm certain that I read the item, but haven't a clue where. I suspect I'll be having a bit of a search through some books this
afternoon.
(I'm sure you're right, but am now - metophorically - scratching my head about my source).
afternoon.
(I'm sure you're right, but am now - metophorically - scratching my head about my source).
Though the Lincoln came from the Central Gunnery School, it was off for a fighter affil exercise, and loading the guns was therefore not deemed wise..... It may be that ammunition was carried (but not linked to the guns) for ballast, and I do recall reading that this was occasional practise on the type.
With regard to the Venom/MiG, it wasn't 20 Sqn (who did the Hunter/MiG manoeuvre kill in the Indonesian Confrontation) and it wasn't over Egypt.
With regard to the Venom/MiG, it wasn't 20 Sqn (who did the Hunter/MiG manoeuvre kill in the Indonesian Confrontation) and it wasn't over Egypt.
I found the reference to the Lincoln being armed - it was in Tony Geraghty's history of Brixmis. The Brixmis team that went out to the crash site was, apparently, convinced that the guns were loaded, and that the BOI report (which blamed the navigator for getting lost) was inaccurate. Subtext being that the affil ex was just a cover.
This, of course, doesn't mean that the Brixmis team got it right (for instance, the Russians might have been tempted to doctor the crash site by introducing 20mm ammo to the scene... - 'We are very sorry, comrade, but you will understand that once the aircraft fired at our fighter...') - but it is an interesting little tale...
This, of course, doesn't mean that the Brixmis team got it right (for instance, the Russians might have been tempted to doctor the crash site by introducing 20mm ammo to the scene... - 'We are very sorry, comrade, but you will understand that once the aircraft fired at our fighter...') - but it is an interesting little tale...
a2a combat
On the IDF/AF-RAF encounter:
Although the IAF had gained overall air superiority in its encounters with the various Arab air forces, the prospect of facing the RAF was not one to be taken lightly and orders were issued to prevent a repeat of the combat with the British. These however, were soon ignored when four IAF Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman (former president of Israel) encoutered RAF Tempests looking for their four missing aircraft. In the ensueing dogfight, Bill Schroeder shot down an RAF Tempest, killing its pilot, David Tattersfield, while Weizman severely damaged another.
With the final result 5:0 in favor of Israel, a fierce British retaliation was expected. This failed to materialize however, apparently after the British government came under fire at home for intervening in Arab-Israeli affairs.
Seems the IDF/AF are a very trigger happy force (a fact proven time and again in later conflicts).
It is interesting that even the RAF may have had to do quite a bit of 'hushing up'.Thought that was the privilege of other AFs!
This is interesting as it is quite similar to what happens in the country where I come from: Did you know that there has actually been F-16 air to air combat losses after all? (Not like the company spread brochures proclaiming a 120-0 kill ratio or whatever it is for the F-16). Seems that one F-16 was in fact missiled down by a Mirage 2000, a few years back, as well as Phantoms and other F-16s manoeuvre killed.
Best part of it all is that although it now seems that the particular F-16D was almost definitely shot down, the backseater who was the only one to make it out of the stricken jet was allegedly an Israeli exchange officer...
Although the IAF had gained overall air superiority in its encounters with the various Arab air forces, the prospect of facing the RAF was not one to be taken lightly and orders were issued to prevent a repeat of the combat with the British. These however, were soon ignored when four IAF Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman (former president of Israel) encoutered RAF Tempests looking for their four missing aircraft. In the ensueing dogfight, Bill Schroeder shot down an RAF Tempest, killing its pilot, David Tattersfield, while Weizman severely damaged another.
With the final result 5:0 in favor of Israel, a fierce British retaliation was expected. This failed to materialize however, apparently after the British government came under fire at home for intervening in Arab-Israeli affairs.
Seems the IDF/AF are a very trigger happy force (a fact proven time and again in later conflicts).
It is interesting that even the RAF may have had to do quite a bit of 'hushing up'.Thought that was the privilege of other AFs!
This is interesting as it is quite similar to what happens in the country where I come from: Did you know that there has actually been F-16 air to air combat losses after all? (Not like the company spread brochures proclaiming a 120-0 kill ratio or whatever it is for the F-16). Seems that one F-16 was in fact missiled down by a Mirage 2000, a few years back, as well as Phantoms and other F-16s manoeuvre killed.
Best part of it all is that although it now seems that the particular F-16D was almost definitely shot down, the backseater who was the only one to make it out of the stricken jet was allegedly an Israeli exchange officer...
Not like the British to steal Australian thunder but the purported shootdown of an Indon C130 was rumoured to be by a RAAF CAC27 Sabre. A Sidewinder kill.
The Urban Myth continues! The Sabre pilot has a name too. He was tragically killed in a civillian accident a few years ago.
RAAF spy missions against the Indons common. Low level and high level sorties, Canberra bombers in the main . No details have been released and I doubt they will in the present climate.
One of spy pilots a Pprune contributor. Missions from Darwin and Singapore. Gday EP.
Would a RAF, F15 equipped , have had a different air-air record?
The Urban Myth continues! The Sabre pilot has a name too. He was tragically killed in a civillian accident a few years ago.
RAAF spy missions against the Indons common. Low level and high level sorties, Canberra bombers in the main . No details have been released and I doubt they will in the present climate.
One of spy pilots a Pprune contributor. Missions from Darwin and Singapore. Gday EP.
Would a RAF, F15 equipped , have had a different air-air record?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 10th Jun 2003 at 22:22.
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ARXW,
I am not aware of any LOCKMART brochures proclaiming the F-16 to have a 120:0 kill ratio! In fact, the most succesful fighter ever - the F-15 - only has a kill ratio of 105.5:0, so it sounds to me like someone is pulling your chain.
Indeed, I don't think that there has ever been that much of a secret made of the F-16D shootdown - it was covered by Air Forces Monthly magazine, complete with a picture of the surviving crewmember in SAR stretcher! I think that it highly unlikely that a picture of him would be released if he were IDF...
I am not aware of any LOCKMART brochures proclaiming the F-16 to have a 120:0 kill ratio! In fact, the most succesful fighter ever - the F-15 - only has a kill ratio of 105.5:0, so it sounds to me like someone is pulling your chain.
Indeed, I don't think that there has ever been that much of a secret made of the F-16D shootdown - it was covered by Air Forces Monthly magazine, complete with a picture of the surviving crewmember in SAR stretcher! I think that it highly unlikely that a picture of him would be released if he were IDF...
Hello Steve,
I know my numbers. The reference to 120:0 was meant to highlight the zero losses which is the most noteworthy part ,since I couldn't remember the precise number of kills (whose significance ends with the description 'several' I guess).
I don't know if LOCKMART ever published their data on F-16 combat performance which they certainly have, but the significance is that just about everyone in the west knows what F-16.net is saying below wrt F-16s kill ratios:
You add the total number of "KILLS" and it comes to 74, of which 64 have resulted in official pilot recognition. These all came within the span of around 50,000 combat missions. During those missions there were NO F-16's downed in air combat. As I mentioned earlier, there was one F-16 downed in a fratricide involved with the Pakistani Air Force when a flight leader was tracking a Su-22 (Fitter H) and fired an AIM-9L, but the missile switched lock.
On the F-16D shootdown:given that it has taken 7 years for any sort of official reaction then I guess it is safe to say that it was not really advertised when it happened.
Funnily enough, not even the Turkish leader (No.1 Capt Mustafa Akman) saw his wingman being shot down. He saw the F-16 going down enveloped in fire and he thought he suffered another inflight fire...The 2v2 fight had split to two far apart 1v1 and in of these the Mirage2000 outmanoeuvred the F-16 in a high g fight and dispatched it with a Magic 2 shot.
A year earlier another turkish F-16 was lost in a 4v2 fight against two Mirage F-1s when he failed to switch fuel feed to a full tank and lost an engine...Therefore the 74:0 score becomes a 37:1 ratio (still not bad)!
Whether the recovered aviator in the backseat of the F-16D in '96 was Israeli or not that's still a rumour that I couldn't verify, except to say that the alleged aviator (LCOL Cicekli) did not speak a word in Turkish during his treatment in Greece, whatever that may mean. In any case even if was IDF the IDF would not have been able to prevent his photo circulating would it?
I'm surprised the RAF is still to come clean with shootdowns that may have happened 40 or more years ago...
Does anyone know btw, if kills scored over Manchuria (ie China, or ..the 'wrong side of the Yalu') during the Korean war were being credited as confirmed kills?
Did the RAF high scorer of that war (Graham Hulse S/L?) survive the war or was he shot down in a2a combat?
I know my numbers. The reference to 120:0 was meant to highlight the zero losses which is the most noteworthy part ,since I couldn't remember the precise number of kills (whose significance ends with the description 'several' I guess).
I don't know if LOCKMART ever published their data on F-16 combat performance which they certainly have, but the significance is that just about everyone in the west knows what F-16.net is saying below wrt F-16s kill ratios:
You add the total number of "KILLS" and it comes to 74, of which 64 have resulted in official pilot recognition. These all came within the span of around 50,000 combat missions. During those missions there were NO F-16's downed in air combat. As I mentioned earlier, there was one F-16 downed in a fratricide involved with the Pakistani Air Force when a flight leader was tracking a Su-22 (Fitter H) and fired an AIM-9L, but the missile switched lock.
On the F-16D shootdown:given that it has taken 7 years for any sort of official reaction then I guess it is safe to say that it was not really advertised when it happened.
Funnily enough, not even the Turkish leader (No.1 Capt Mustafa Akman) saw his wingman being shot down. He saw the F-16 going down enveloped in fire and he thought he suffered another inflight fire...The 2v2 fight had split to two far apart 1v1 and in of these the Mirage2000 outmanoeuvred the F-16 in a high g fight and dispatched it with a Magic 2 shot.
A year earlier another turkish F-16 was lost in a 4v2 fight against two Mirage F-1s when he failed to switch fuel feed to a full tank and lost an engine...Therefore the 74:0 score becomes a 37:1 ratio (still not bad)!
Whether the recovered aviator in the backseat of the F-16D in '96 was Israeli or not that's still a rumour that I couldn't verify, except to say that the alleged aviator (LCOL Cicekli) did not speak a word in Turkish during his treatment in Greece, whatever that may mean. In any case even if was IDF the IDF would not have been able to prevent his photo circulating would it?
I'm surprised the RAF is still to come clean with shootdowns that may have happened 40 or more years ago...
Does anyone know btw, if kills scored over Manchuria (ie China, or ..the 'wrong side of the Yalu') during the Korean war were being credited as confirmed kills?
Did the RAF high scorer of that war (Graham Hulse S/L?) survive the war or was he shot down in a2a combat?
ARXW,
I suspect that since the Turkish F-16 losses are not universally accepted to have resulted from combat, they aren't credited.
The second point is that Greece and Turkey are (theoretically) NATO allies and aren't meant to be shooting each other down... If you put together the lack of acceptance with the presumed lack of a war/limited war/military conflict of any sort, then you can begin to see the rationale.
I suspect that since the Turkish F-16 losses are not universally accepted to have resulted from combat, they aren't credited.
The second point is that Greece and Turkey are (theoretically) NATO allies and aren't meant to be shooting each other down... If you put together the lack of acceptance with the presumed lack of a war/limited war/military conflict of any sort, then you can begin to see the rationale.
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Deliverance - did I read you correctly as comparing the Phantom with the F3? Shock and horror - you made the same mistake as Mike Elsom in 1980 when he was in OR and spent his time telling the World how good the F2 was compared with the F4.
I seem to remember air combat training against the Phantom in a Lightning in 1967 and flying the Phantom in ACT the early 70's. I sincerely hope that an aircraft entering service in the 80's with a weapons system much-modified since then would compare very favourably with the Phantom!
However, the F3 still does not match the Lightning or the Phantom at high level, although it now has an infinitely better weapons system and loads more help from external sources.
Having said all that I agree with your sentiments on AD. It is nonsense to promote offensive capability as more important than AD.
I seem to remember air combat training against the Phantom in a Lightning in 1967 and flying the Phantom in ACT the early 70's. I sincerely hope that an aircraft entering service in the 80's with a weapons system much-modified since then would compare very favourably with the Phantom!
However, the F3 still does not match the Lightning or the Phantom at high level, although it now has an infinitely better weapons system and loads more help from external sources.
Having said all that I agree with your sentiments on AD. It is nonsense to promote offensive capability as more important than AD.
