Foreigners in the British military?
Lupus Domesticus
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corsair
In the eighties I was happily ensconsed in the UK, making things that go bang.
Many of the contracts we were awarded, and I know plenty of other NZ, Oz, and SA folks who found the same thing, were given on the basis that we weren't Irish.
Amongst the other subbies I worked with were Arabs, Kurds, Basques, Libyans, Poles and Czechs (this was before the Wall came down), even the odd Russian, and a few stray Brits (!).
There appeared to be a quite deliberate bias against Irish nationals within the MoD at that time, in Maggie's Britain and when the troubles were bad.
Maybe that bias flowed over to the military, and who knows, perhaps it has continued.
Being NZ with a British passport I never struck any difficulties; I wonder if that would have changed had they known about my membership of the local chapter of Plaid Cymru?
In the eighties I was happily ensconsed in the UK, making things that go bang.
Many of the contracts we were awarded, and I know plenty of other NZ, Oz, and SA folks who found the same thing, were given on the basis that we weren't Irish.
Amongst the other subbies I worked with were Arabs, Kurds, Basques, Libyans, Poles and Czechs (this was before the Wall came down), even the odd Russian, and a few stray Brits (!).
There appeared to be a quite deliberate bias against Irish nationals within the MoD at that time, in Maggie's Britain and when the troubles were bad.
Maybe that bias flowed over to the military, and who knows, perhaps it has continued.
Being NZ with a British passport I never struck any difficulties; I wonder if that would have changed had they known about my membership of the local chapter of Plaid Cymru?
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Slightly off topic but an indication of how the MOD/Home/Foreign Office seem to make policy up as they go along - I was stationed at Cranwell in the late 80s and one of the guys who worked in the guardroom was from the West Indies, can't remember the exact country. He didn't have a British passport, so applied for one. Did he get it? - did he hell. So there he was, a Corporal in the RAF, but not deemed worthy of a British passport. I did wonder how on earth he got in in the first place. He wondered why he'd even bothered in the first place and left.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hansard: 18 Feb 1998 : Column WA48
Armed Forces: Nationality Criteria
Lord Hardy of Wath asked Her Majesty's Government:
"When the review of the nationality criteria for entry into the Armed Forces will be completed."[HL696]
Lord Gilbert: A comprehensive review of all nationality issues for employment in the Armed Forces has just been completed. It has now been agreed that, with effect from 1 April 1998, the rules relating to nationality extraction, that is the nationality of an applicant's parents, should be relaxed in line with the changes made for Civil Servants. In the majority of cases parents of applicants will no longer need to be British or Commonwealth citizens, or Republic of Ireland nationals. In certain circumstances, where security is of paramount importance, applicants will be looked at on a case by case basis.
It has also been agreed that the residency rules should be changed. The five year UK residency requirement for most applicants is to be relaxed to allow those who have spent less than five years in the UK entry into the Armed Forces.
We believe that these rule changes will ensure that the Armed Forces become more open for potential recruits, particularly among the ethnic minorities.
We have concluded that the existing rules relating to an applicant's own nationality should remain, namely that an applicant should be a British, British Dependent Territories or Commonwealth citizen or a Republic of Ireland national.
Armed Forces: Nationality Criteria
Lord Hardy of Wath asked Her Majesty's Government:
"When the review of the nationality criteria for entry into the Armed Forces will be completed."[HL696]
Lord Gilbert: A comprehensive review of all nationality issues for employment in the Armed Forces has just been completed. It has now been agreed that, with effect from 1 April 1998, the rules relating to nationality extraction, that is the nationality of an applicant's parents, should be relaxed in line with the changes made for Civil Servants. In the majority of cases parents of applicants will no longer need to be British or Commonwealth citizens, or Republic of Ireland nationals. In certain circumstances, where security is of paramount importance, applicants will be looked at on a case by case basis.
It has also been agreed that the residency rules should be changed. The five year UK residency requirement for most applicants is to be relaxed to allow those who have spent less than five years in the UK entry into the Armed Forces.
We believe that these rule changes will ensure that the Armed Forces become more open for potential recruits, particularly among the ethnic minorities.
We have concluded that the existing rules relating to an applicant's own nationality should remain, namely that an applicant should be a British, British Dependent Territories or Commonwealth citizen or a Republic of Ireland national.
In matters of immigration and citizenship, and many other things besides, the UK (or at least HMG) seems to make policy on the hoof to suit the latest tabloid headlines or readers 'phone-in!
It's no exageration to say that "Foreigners" helped to save Britain in 1940, aircrew from just about every nation in Europe (and the USA!), were strapped to aeroplanes and sent off to fight before they even learnt the language, (I met some RAF officers in the Sixties who were still struggling with that!).
In our own inconsistent way, we were glad of anybody to fight for us in the Forties,they were then dumped to favour the Commonwealth; glad of Commonwealth citizens in the Fifties and Sixties these dumped to suit the EU; now, in the New Century, were ungreatfully treating EU citizens to pander to US paranoia.
After all this, I don't know why any non native would want to fight for UK (1940 being an obvious exception!), but if some do, then, properly vetted, make them welcome, be greatful and include citizenship with passport if they want it.
It's no exageration to say that "Foreigners" helped to save Britain in 1940, aircrew from just about every nation in Europe (and the USA!), were strapped to aeroplanes and sent off to fight before they even learnt the language, (I met some RAF officers in the Sixties who were still struggling with that!).
In our own inconsistent way, we were glad of anybody to fight for us in the Forties,they were then dumped to favour the Commonwealth; glad of Commonwealth citizens in the Fifties and Sixties these dumped to suit the EU; now, in the New Century, were ungreatfully treating EU citizens to pander to US paranoia.
After all this, I don't know why any non native would want to fight for UK (1940 being an obvious exception!), but if some do, then, properly vetted, make them welcome, be greatful and include citizenship with passport if they want it.
PAF - I joined the RAF last year and had no problems at all regarding entry requirements. I have no parent or grand-parent connection with the UK and had never even put a foot outside NZ when I applied - I hadnt even visited the West Island! I found the staff at OASC particularly helpful and once accepted they put me in touch with the right people and I had a three year HM Forces visa in a fortnight.
Do however expect to have to shell out for a trip to the UK for the selection board - it is not possible to do any of the aptitude tests outside of cranwitz.
Vortex - we had a guy at IOT from Andorra who got in because his grand mother was scottish so your dutch mate should be fine.
It is a hassle not having a passport though. It's amazing how quickly finance companies hang up on you when they find out you have been in the country only a year and dont have permanent residency or citizenship!
Do however expect to have to shell out for a trip to the UK for the selection board - it is not possible to do any of the aptitude tests outside of cranwitz.
Vortex - we had a guy at IOT from Andorra who got in because his grand mother was scottish so your dutch mate should be fine.
It is a hassle not having a passport though. It's amazing how quickly finance companies hang up on you when they find out you have been in the country only a year and dont have permanent residency or citizenship!
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As Jay Doubleyou says they do seem to have a habit of making it up on the hoof. That was the impression I got from the whole event. I entered into extensive correspondance, was rejected on my educational qualifications at first then they were accepted only to be knocked back on the residency requirement which wasn't an issue the first time. This was reduced to one year after more letters. I got the definite impression it depended on which officer you dealt with in the MOD. The five year residence requirement had only recently been implemented. I suspect prior to that it had been an even more ad hoc arrangement. Before that I think it was more on the lines of if your face fits. I did get the definite impression that they were not even sure if it applied to Irish citizens. Previously it worked just like the army who it seems had no such residency rules for Irish people yet had them for others. Massive inconsistency, but I suppose the MOD is famous for that. I can't help shaking the feeling that if I had the sense to storm the portals of the MOD so they could see what 'fine chap' I was. It might have been different. 
But then again perhaps as BlueWolf suggests, we Irish were not flavour of the month at the time. Again though I suspect who you dealt with had more to do with it than actual institutional bias. Naturally this possible bias ignores the considerable personal risk any Irishman took by joining the British forces at the time. Going home on leave you could hardly boast of your exploits in the local pub although I knew several guys who served in the British forces who didn't exactly hide it. Down south, we were always a bit more liberal about that kind of thing.
Glad to see it's changed since back to the old sensible system which worked for so long. Too late for me though. Such a pity, I fancied flying the Lightning or even the Phantom. Who know I might still be in service: Air Vice Marshall Sir Corsair, DFC, DSO, VC
Ah dreams!!
Yes the MOD ruined my life
So it would seem, our Dutch friend might have a chance after all.
But then again perhaps as BlueWolf suggests, we Irish were not flavour of the month at the time. Again though I suspect who you dealt with had more to do with it than actual institutional bias. Naturally this possible bias ignores the considerable personal risk any Irishman took by joining the British forces at the time. Going home on leave you could hardly boast of your exploits in the local pub although I knew several guys who served in the British forces who didn't exactly hide it. Down south, we were always a bit more liberal about that kind of thing.
Glad to see it's changed since back to the old sensible system which worked for so long. Too late for me though. Such a pity, I fancied flying the Lightning or even the Phantom. Who know I might still be in service: Air Vice Marshall Sir Corsair, DFC, DSO, VC
Ah dreams!!
Yes the MOD ruined my life
So it would seem, our Dutch friend might have a chance after all.
Last edited by corsair; 23rd May 2003 at 23:36.
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When I came to the UK several years ago I had a UK passport(Father) and a NZ passport (Birth). I wasn't permitted to join as a Brit because of lack of residency, so I joined under the jolly commonwealth scheme. However, back in the mid-nineties it seemed to be the luck of the draw.
An Ozzie mate (yeah, some of them are alright) also tried to join the RAF under the Commonwealth entrant scheme (he had an Australian passport and also a Brit one from his father who had been a Gp Capt in the RAF) but was told there was no such thing. Without residency, this didn't leave him many options. So he asked the same of the RN who, after putting him through the usual selection blah, offered him a place as a Navy Pilot under the Commonwealth scheme. He then took the acceptance letter to the RAF recruiting office who still blatantly refused to accept the existance of such a scheme. Not wanting to rock the boat (no pun intended) he took the Navy up on the offer and flew with the fishheads.
An Ozzie mate (yeah, some of them are alright) also tried to join the RAF under the Commonwealth entrant scheme (he had an Australian passport and also a Brit one from his father who had been a Gp Capt in the RAF) but was told there was no such thing. Without residency, this didn't leave him many options. So he asked the same of the RN who, after putting him through the usual selection blah, offered him a place as a Navy Pilot under the Commonwealth scheme. He then took the acceptance letter to the RAF recruiting office who still blatantly refused to accept the existance of such a scheme. Not wanting to rock the boat (no pun intended) he took the Navy up on the offer and flew with the fishheads.
Lupus Domesticus
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Stray Fin, that's weird, but it adds another piece to the jigsaw.
As with your good self, I have a UK Passport thanks to Senior (also ex RAF) and a NZ one by birth.
However, my British passport bears the stamp "British Citizen" because, perhaps out of foresight, Senior thought to register my birth (and those of my sisters) with the British High Commission here as "British Citizens born to a British Citizen abroad".
Apparently if this is not done, your passport will say that you are a "British National" - which is not the same as being a "Citizen", and although your passport allows you entry, it does not of itself guarantee you the right to residency in the UK.
Hair-splitting bureaucratic BS, but perhaps it sheds some light on your situation.
AP, good to hear you are doing well, keep it up, and come home when we have some F-15s and F-16s for you to instruct on
As with your good self, I have a UK Passport thanks to Senior (also ex RAF) and a NZ one by birth.
However, my British passport bears the stamp "British Citizen" because, perhaps out of foresight, Senior thought to register my birth (and those of my sisters) with the British High Commission here as "British Citizens born to a British Citizen abroad".
Apparently if this is not done, your passport will say that you are a "British National" - which is not the same as being a "Citizen", and although your passport allows you entry, it does not of itself guarantee you the right to residency in the UK.
Hair-splitting bureaucratic BS, but perhaps it sheds some light on your situation.
AP, good to hear you are doing well, keep it up, and come home when we have some F-15s and F-16s for you to instruct on
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Sorry folks to butt in on your forum.
Just to point out the passport issue.
I am an Australian with a British born father.
In Nov 98 I applied to the British High Commission in Canberra for a British passport. I got one. (Very prompt service too I might add).
Under "Nationality" it says "British citizen". As far as I can tell there are no proviso's or limits attached. Full citizenship.
Dad didn't register me with the British High Commision or any thing. I was born in the mid 60's but I don't think that had any thing to do with it.
Just to point out the passport issue.
I am an Australian with a British born father.
In Nov 98 I applied to the British High Commission in Canberra for a British passport. I got one. (Very prompt service too I might add).
Under "Nationality" it says "British citizen". As far as I can tell there are no proviso's or limits attached. Full citizenship.
Dad didn't register me with the British High Commision or any thing. I was born in the mid 60's but I don't think that had any thing to do with it.
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Aynayda Pizaqvick
Interesting that you say you had to come to UK for OASC. Mine was all done by e-mail, and Aus Medical appointments.
The only interview was a 10 minute chat with the Brit Air Advisor in Canberra!!
Again it appears that there is no real formalized process.
Good luck to all who try.
The grass is not necessarily greener. Or if it is, it is due to the Bull Shiyt fertilizing it!
Make your own choice and make the most of it.
.
Interesting that you say you had to come to UK for OASC. Mine was all done by e-mail, and Aus Medical appointments.
The only interview was a 10 minute chat with the Brit Air Advisor in Canberra!!
Again it appears that there is no real formalized process.
Good luck to all who try.
The grass is not necessarily greener. Or if it is, it is due to the Bull Shiyt fertilizing it!
Make your own choice and make the most of it.
.
I have dual British/NZ nationality. Reynolds jr. was born in NZ. I was told by the British HC that I did not need to register her birth with them as she was automatically a British citizen as I was born in the UK.
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L J R,
Too right mate. The RAAF still impose a 10 year ROSO after pilots course. Just like to know my options as I plan to live in the U.K. at some stage of my life. Although not overly happy with the pub closure times there!!
Too right mate. The RAAF still impose a 10 year ROSO after pilots course. Just like to know my options as I plan to live in the U.K. at some stage of my life. Although not overly happy with the pub closure times there!!
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Blue Wolf,
Just checked my UK passport and it does have me down as a UK citizen. I guess they just make it up as they go along. Certainly nobody in the recruiting centres has a scooby what the letter of the law is. But then who actually ends up with a posting to a recruiting centre?
Just checked my UK passport and it does have me down as a UK citizen. I guess they just make it up as they go along. Certainly nobody in the recruiting centres has a scooby what the letter of the law is. But then who actually ends up with a posting to a recruiting centre?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Pass a Frozo,
England has the dodgy pub opening times. Scotland is much much better. I've forgotten what Wales pub times are.
I *think* there are plans afoot to change the pub times in England to something us Antipodeans and Scots are used to.
England has the dodgy pub opening times. Scotland is much much better. I've forgotten what Wales pub times are.
I *think* there are plans afoot to change the pub times in England to something us Antipodeans and Scots are used to.
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This thread may have long since died, but I only just came across it!
I tried to take a very roundabout way in, went through the Civilian world, got the ATPL and Instrument rating, wanted to go down the UK Military route, (They fly bigger better faster, in more testing conditions, the type of flying every pilot wants to experience, no matter what they say, unless they are lying.)
But was told because I was not a U.K citizen I could only be a grease monkey or a rifleman, not allowed to be aircrew.
Cant help but thinking that they are only saving the good jobs for the nationals, which I suppose is fair enough, but in a time when they are in dire need of a bit of experience, commitment and personnel, you would think that someting small and pointless like that could be brushed under the carpet?
I tried to take a very roundabout way in, went through the Civilian world, got the ATPL and Instrument rating, wanted to go down the UK Military route, (They fly bigger better faster, in more testing conditions, the type of flying every pilot wants to experience, no matter what they say, unless they are lying.)
But was told because I was not a U.K citizen I could only be a grease monkey or a rifleman, not allowed to be aircrew.
Cant help but thinking that they are only saving the good jobs for the nationals, which I suppose is fair enough, but in a time when they are in dire need of a bit of experience, commitment and personnel, you would think that someting small and pointless like that could be brushed under the carpet?
Last edited by Watchoutbelow; 20th Sep 2003 at 23:31.
I was once chatting to the owner of a colourful but tatty drinking establishment in Antigua. After a couple of bottles of what the locals called beer, he told me that he was AWOL from the British Army. His story was that he joined as a citizen of Antigua and after a few years, went home to visit his family. When arriving back in the UK, it transpired his Visa had expired. No problem he thought, I'll renew it now - at the airport. No chance, that type of Visa had to be issued by the MOD and he couldn't come in. No exceptions.
So he went back to Antigua, phoned his unit explaining the problem and was told to send them his passport so they could send it to the MOD and get the visa renewed. After nearly a year of phoning the UK and waiting for it to come back, the Army told him that he was now AWOL and to RTU immediately, despite the fact he had no passport - let alone a visa. They also stopped paying him.
As by now he was throughly bored of the whole situation and being none to partial to the British weather, he forgot the Army and opened a bar.
Water filled slit trench on Salisbury plain versus a bar on a beach in the Caribbean. Tough choice!
So he went back to Antigua, phoned his unit explaining the problem and was told to send them his passport so they could send it to the MOD and get the visa renewed. After nearly a year of phoning the UK and waiting for it to come back, the Army told him that he was now AWOL and to RTU immediately, despite the fact he had no passport - let alone a visa. They also stopped paying him.
As by now he was throughly bored of the whole situation and being none to partial to the British weather, he forgot the Army and opened a bar.
Water filled slit trench on Salisbury plain versus a bar on a beach in the Caribbean. Tough choice!
For your information Watchoutbelow, we are suffering a glut of multi-engine pilots at the moment. Sure, there might be a shortage of frontline fast-jet pilots at the moment, but there is no shortage of young UK citizens lining up to apply!
When you consider that hundreds are turned down and only a few a year are selected for pilot training, these precious few positions should be there for UK nationals, first and foremost??
So I don't consider nationality requirements 'small and pointless'.
When you consider that hundreds are turned down and only a few a year are selected for pilot training, these precious few positions should be there for UK nationals, first and foremost??
So I don't consider nationality requirements 'small and pointless'.
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Greg Rusedski got his British Tennis Passport because his mum went to Blackpool once (or something like that).
Seriously, might it not depend upon how the mother came by her British citizenship? If she was born to it there may be one set of rules but the outcome may be different if she was naturalized.
Looking across the Atlantic - Arnie Schwarzenegger is a naturalized septic but that means he can never be President or Vice President.
Seriously, might it not depend upon how the mother came by her British citizenship? If she was born to it there may be one set of rules but the outcome may be different if she was naturalized.
Looking across the Atlantic - Arnie Schwarzenegger is a naturalized septic but that means he can never be President or Vice President.
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Nationality vs Passport
Nationality vs Passport - I incorrectly started off another thread - this is where it should reside.
Reading the thread, I get the feeling that there is some confusion between right of residency, nationality and holding a passport. As a Kiwi who moved across to the RAF a few years ago, I came under the discretionary 5 year rule for residency prior to entering the Services set by the UK MOD. Basically, if you had the right skill set, could demonstrate command of English and appeared to be one who could 'assimilate', this requirement could be waved. (my requirement was dropped to one day!). This requirement should not be confused with 5 years' residency prior to naturalisation to satisfy the Home Office, revised in 1998. Whilst in full time employment in the services, the Home Office could issue a waiver to entry restrictions on your native passport. This allows free entry in/out of the UK, provided you could prove that your remained in the services (an ID card was ideal; alternatively a letter signed by your Unit Commander or another grown up would suffice).
After 5 years' residency in the UK, anyone can apply to be naturalised - can take 18 months and costs about GBP150. If supported by appropriate letters from your personnel officer, this can be sped up - 3 months in my case. Once a Certificate of Naturalisation has been issued, you are officially a British Citizen - at this point you can now apply for a passport. It was clear that Gen Office clerks didn't understand the requirement to be naturalised first, then apply for a passport. I was persuaded to submit a UK passport application befire being naturalised - the result was predictable, to say the least.
I retain both a Kiwi and a UK passport. I tend to use the Kiwi one outside of Europe - especially in the Middle East; ironically it can draw less attention, and helps to keep the UK one 'clean'. I sympathise with an earlier correspondent about access to US material - on one occasion, after having given a presentation on a particular topic, an American officer asked me to leave the ensuing discussions on the basis that I came from a 'potentially hostile nation' ie New Zealand! I was rather cross with him, to say the least.
In sum - right of residency is needed - followed by application to be naturalised (5 years or marry a local - I did both!) - followed by an application for a British Passport.
Somewhat confused about the reference to our Antiguan AWOL chap who claimed that the MOD issued visas - they don't. Nationality and Passports are issued by the Home Office with equanimity (and so they should be); membership of HM armed forces does not afford any additional privaledges but does demonstrate continuity of employment and 'assimilation'.
Moreover the Services can facilitate applications with poshly worded letters on embossed stationery!
Reading the thread, I get the feeling that there is some confusion between right of residency, nationality and holding a passport. As a Kiwi who moved across to the RAF a few years ago, I came under the discretionary 5 year rule for residency prior to entering the Services set by the UK MOD. Basically, if you had the right skill set, could demonstrate command of English and appeared to be one who could 'assimilate', this requirement could be waved. (my requirement was dropped to one day!). This requirement should not be confused with 5 years' residency prior to naturalisation to satisfy the Home Office, revised in 1998. Whilst in full time employment in the services, the Home Office could issue a waiver to entry restrictions on your native passport. This allows free entry in/out of the UK, provided you could prove that your remained in the services (an ID card was ideal; alternatively a letter signed by your Unit Commander or another grown up would suffice).
After 5 years' residency in the UK, anyone can apply to be naturalised - can take 18 months and costs about GBP150. If supported by appropriate letters from your personnel officer, this can be sped up - 3 months in my case. Once a Certificate of Naturalisation has been issued, you are officially a British Citizen - at this point you can now apply for a passport. It was clear that Gen Office clerks didn't understand the requirement to be naturalised first, then apply for a passport. I was persuaded to submit a UK passport application befire being naturalised - the result was predictable, to say the least.
I retain both a Kiwi and a UK passport. I tend to use the Kiwi one outside of Europe - especially in the Middle East; ironically it can draw less attention, and helps to keep the UK one 'clean'. I sympathise with an earlier correspondent about access to US material - on one occasion, after having given a presentation on a particular topic, an American officer asked me to leave the ensuing discussions on the basis that I came from a 'potentially hostile nation' ie New Zealand! I was rather cross with him, to say the least.
In sum - right of residency is needed - followed by application to be naturalised (5 years or marry a local - I did both!) - followed by an application for a British Passport.
Somewhat confused about the reference to our Antiguan AWOL chap who claimed that the MOD issued visas - they don't. Nationality and Passports are issued by the Home Office with equanimity (and so they should be); membership of HM armed forces does not afford any additional privaledges but does demonstrate continuity of employment and 'assimilation'.
Moreover the Services can facilitate applications with poshly worded letters on embossed stationery!
