Chinook Heavy Landing in Iraq
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Beagle, an ability to carry enough fuel to get back if the FARP is unavailable is fine in a jet. Unfortunately this is just not possible in some SH. If we can, we do. Launching with less than 1 hr fuel was a regular occurence on ops in the Puma. If the TSW kit went u/s, you would shut down and wait until it was fixed.
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When the cat's away, the mice will...slag each other off? That's not what this forum or thread is about, Gents. Tigs2, your points are well noted. Be assured that I consider all of the crew (now I know who they are) to be good friends of mine and, yes, my heart goes out to them. After months fighting a war and wallowing in SH muck, an avoidable incident is regrettable and unwelcome. Lets hope that things don't get out of hand and careers aren't blighted by what I assume to have been a cognitive failure.
Also chaps, it is very easy to have a swipe at new boys- remember, we all started out with no experience and no cred. We should honour opinions and comment, when appropriate, on ignorance and naivety in a balanced, sensible but ultimately informing reply.
Oh, and if anyone mentions negligence again, do so with great care and make sure you are prepared to explain your comment and defend your ground.
Also chaps, it is very easy to have a swipe at new boys- remember, we all started out with no experience and no cred. We should honour opinions and comment, when appropriate, on ignorance and naivety in a balanced, sensible but ultimately informing reply.
Oh, and if anyone mentions negligence again, do so with great care and make sure you are prepared to explain your comment and defend your ground.
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I won't use the dreaded "N..." word, and I appreciate that the crew were under all sorts of pressure to reach their destination, and that they were screwed up by support facilities on the ground not materialising "as briefed". BUT, perhaps some grizzled old SH operator can explain to me how can it be that, although we were all taught at FTS that a precautionary landing when you still have fuel to put it down under full control is better than a "dead-stick" or "flame-out", and when in command of an aircraft that does not need 3,000 metres of concrete, the captain elected to wait until he was "sucking on air"? Its all very well to say "wait for the BoI findings", but they probably will not be published as there was (thankfully) no loss of life or serious injury and the incident did not happen in Scotland. "Joe Public", of which I am a member, does have a legitimate interest. We pay the bills.
On another topic, many on this forum have bleated about the Yanks' cavalier attitude to "blue-on-blue" involving allied forces, and their reluctance to divulge all the relevant information. Well, I wonder whether MOD will send the N of K of the USN exchange officer who died in the collision between two Sea Kings within 5 nm of the Ark a copy of the B of I?
On another topic, many on this forum have bleated about the Yanks' cavalier attitude to "blue-on-blue" involving allied forces, and their reluctance to divulge all the relevant information. Well, I wonder whether MOD will send the N of K of the USN exchange officer who died in the collision between two Sea Kings within 5 nm of the Ark a copy of the B of I?
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Tourist, you have access to the signal, maybe you have access to the cockpit. You will probably be aware of the poor fuel panel design- buttons which depress slightly to latch on with internal captions illuminated by twin bulbs which frequently fail. These are very hard to see in bright (desert) light conditions when both bulbs are working. Now note Dunhovrin's comment about crew duty day, cumulative fatigue, stress, anxiety. Finally, note my comment about cognitive failure. Add it all up and I consider that your verdict of negligence is poorly considered. That is my opinion. Now explain your opinion; we would like to see your thought processes.
Flat Vet, you missed the fact that the crew believed that they were fuelling correctly and that they had plenty to reach Baghdad. Without a doubt, this crew WOULD have landed had they thought they were on fumes. This was not strictly a case of press-on-itis.
Flat Vet, you missed the fact that the crew believed that they were fuelling correctly and that they had plenty to reach Baghdad. Without a doubt, this crew WOULD have landed had they thought they were on fumes. This was not strictly a case of press-on-itis.
Good call about the bulbs in the fuel ctrl panel Guzzle.
Also, even if the crew were carrying out scan cx every 30 mins, the fuel contents selector switch is not entirely accurate, therefore giving a possible erroneous reading.
(Even if they missed a cx and did not do one for 60 mins, in the heat of operations, a lapse like that is understandable. Anyone who says they have never missed a cx is lying)
Also, even if the crew were carrying out scan cx every 30 mins, the fuel contents selector switch is not entirely accurate, therefore giving a possible erroneous reading.
(Even if they missed a cx and did not do one for 60 mins, in the heat of operations, a lapse like that is understandable. Anyone who says they have never missed a cx is lying)
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Ok guzzle.
they tried to save some fuel by putting one to flight idle. My tech is sh1t, but even i know that that doesnt work.
After making the correct choice to shut one down late, they then failed to monitor fuel close enough to notice that they were about to run dry in the tank that fed the one working engine. And the bit about pressure from senior blokes on board is bull. No excuse for not landing. Its all very well to not want to land because of nasty baddies on the grnd, but rather that than autoing into the desert
Any help?
(bound to go land with the gear up now! thats fate!)
Fuel cx every 30 mins!! with one shut down for lack of fuel! every 30 secs more like
they tried to save some fuel by putting one to flight idle. My tech is sh1t, but even i know that that doesnt work.
After making the correct choice to shut one down late, they then failed to monitor fuel close enough to notice that they were about to run dry in the tank that fed the one working engine. And the bit about pressure from senior blokes on board is bull. No excuse for not landing. Its all very well to not want to land because of nasty baddies on the grnd, but rather that than autoing into the desert
Any help?
(bound to go land with the gear up now! thats fate!)
Fuel cx every 30 mins!! with one shut down for lack of fuel! every 30 secs more like
Join Date: May 2000
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Keeping it brief.........4 crew in a wokka, two in the front to look at the cross feed switch selection, a no. 2 crewman to stick his head past the jump seat occupant and check the cross feed switch selection and a no. 1 crewman down the back to check the cross feed valve motors..........4 people missed it. Oops.
But hey, it happens, just like it always does........at exactly the wrong time and in exactly the wrong place. At least the crew deserve a well done for landing and all walking away along with their pax. Cabs can be fixed - people sometimes not.
Tigs, slagging someone off with one breath and then apologising wholeheartedly with the next does not gain you much credibility. I humbly suggest that we would all be well advised to carefully consider responses on here before launching into an attack on a fellow pruner.
Nuff said, I'm off to the bar, anyone fancy a pint?
But hey, it happens, just like it always does........at exactly the wrong time and in exactly the wrong place. At least the crew deserve a well done for landing and all walking away along with their pax. Cabs can be fixed - people sometimes not.
Tigs, slagging someone off with one breath and then apologising wholeheartedly with the next does not gain you much credibility. I humbly suggest that we would all be well advised to carefully consider responses on here before launching into an attack on a fellow pruner.
Nuff said, I'm off to the bar, anyone fancy a pint?
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Bit late to this one chaps - too busy buying things and looking for smut! Nice to see some people still don't know how a dictionary works. All seems like classic SH (the 'discussion', that is) - why bother to wait for the full story when you can have an online kangaroo court. I just hope some of you don't end up in my cockpit - special sauce anyone?.
Another bag of stones for the man in the greenhouse please..........bah
Another bag of stones for the man in the greenhouse please..........bah
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GUYS PLEASE......
I,m not SH but I am a mil ac Capt, if I overheard this 'chat' in a barI would'nt know which one of you to swing for first!. Anyone posted who was actually there?..... no, thought not.
P.S. Tourist, would you accuse the Capt of negligance to his face, on the basis of a signal, without hearing his side of the story?, -
could you be a bluntie, brand new Flt Cdr or a complete tw*t, or possibly perm two from three!
I,m not SH but I am a mil ac Capt, if I overheard this 'chat' in a barI would'nt know which one of you to swing for first!. Anyone posted who was actually there?..... no, thought not.
P.S. Tourist, would you accuse the Capt of negligance to his face, on the basis of a signal, without hearing his side of the story?, -
could you be a bluntie, brand new Flt Cdr or a complete tw*t, or possibly perm two from three!
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Not just any signal, but one he wrote.
ie, HIS SIDE OF THE STORY
But no I wouldnt, he has one whole more ring than me.
At least I respect his complete honesty in saving himself no blushes.
and the answer is no, no, sometimes
incidentally, if you cant hurl some abuse after a f@ck up where nobody gets hurt and its happy ever after, when can you?
ie, HIS SIDE OF THE STORY
But no I wouldnt, he has one whole more ring than me.
At least I respect his complete honesty in saving himself no blushes.
and the answer is no, no, sometimes
incidentally, if you cant hurl some abuse after a f@ck up where nobody gets hurt and its happy ever after, when can you?
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I have just got back from TFD(that f****n det), and I am disgusted by some of the crap that has been banded around on this thread by people who have no knowledge of ops out there. Yes, the crew admit they made a mistake. Probably compounded by long hours, no sleep, pump tasking, a lack of reliable info from the US forces, and working/sleeping(!) in temperatures in excess of 43 degrees. Anyone who has been there will understand exactly why and how mistakes like that one occurred. To those of you who have never made a mistake in the air, I salute your ability to lie. To those of you who have got away with landing on minima (or below?) lucky you. To those of you in the flying world who don't understand how we operate fuel sites/div minima in SH, find out or shut up. To use the word negligence in the operational environment is just damn wrong. Just do what I did and thank your lucky stars that noone came home in a wooden box.
Well put, high spirits! And welcome back to a bit of peace and quiet, I hope. You deserve it.
One aspect of this incident is that the pressures which you rightly describe would, I venture to suggest, probably add up insidiously to create an environment in which errors might be more likely to occur. Hence those under such pressures might quite understandably not even be aware that their individual or corporate performance had reached such a state.
The main thing is that no-one was killed.
One aspect of this incident is that the pressures which you rightly describe would, I venture to suggest, probably add up insidiously to create an environment in which errors might be more likely to occur. Hence those under such pressures might quite understandably not even be aware that their individual or corporate performance had reached such a state.
The main thing is that no-one was killed.
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Tourist, if you drive the twin tubdeathbanana then fair one fella,they frighten the cr@p out of me!, more than happy just to park up somewhere and give you the gas, sorry could'nt help this time.
Yeah, div fuel and deja-vu is great. Never been subject to a PPrune BOI ,must be a humbling experience to learn so much from so many who were'nt there........
Load Moving.........
Yeah, div fuel and deja-vu is great. Never been subject to a PPrune BOI ,must be a humbling experience to learn so much from so many who were'nt there........
Load Moving.........
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Thank you for one of the first sensible replies I have seen on this thread BEagle. I am sure some of the aforementioned factors compounded the situation for that crew. Now JHC about those air conditioning units that you still haven't ordered for the Basrah det......
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Having just got back from the said theatre and had the details from both ends of the incident.....
1. Nice to see the guys are still here to learn from it
2. Negligence is a very heavy word and used out of context at times
3. Maybe avoidable is more appropriate
4. If TIGS2 represents them at the BOI they are home and dry!
and yes, I was below 50 feet and do have an appropriate background.
Nice to be back in our particularly green and pleasant land again.
Three cheers for the pistol packing Colonel
1. Nice to see the guys are still here to learn from it
2. Negligence is a very heavy word and used out of context at times
3. Maybe avoidable is more appropriate
4. If TIGS2 represents them at the BOI they are home and dry!
and yes, I was below 50 feet and do have an appropriate background.
Nice to be back in our particularly green and pleasant land again.
Three cheers for the pistol packing Colonel
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I am another of the bally heroes just returned from that det. Most of the threads here are posted by ill informed so called military aviators. The crew carried out there duties professionally throughout the whole det and were totally honest about the incident. The call on what each member of the crew should have been doing was also way off the mark cos they all monitored the situation as they should of. All switch selections were made and checked. Maybe you should all just wait for the final report!
