Chinook Heavy Landing in Iraq
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Cornish, self chastisement? Was it Ivan Callotte? And no, my relative wasn't Ivan. 12PSI, yes I guess it does. Good to see some pointy-nose banter in the thread- thought you guys were too busy counting up your shoot-downs from the War to see who the best Ace was!
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Guzzle and the rest of you chaps on this thread!
The comments on this thread have turned to complete drivvle! The incident concerned involves one of the best loved chaps in the chinook world, my thoughts go out to him. They ran out of fuel 6 miles from Baghdad International airport after passing both on-route FARPS which were inexplicibly(SP!) closed. i.e the boys had planned to re-fuel there but could not. The captain did a magnificent job of landing the ac with both engines shut down. What is wrong with having someone in the jump seat? Yes if I was in good old Blightey I would have landed by the road side.. but under these circumstances can you really blame the boys for pressing on? There is a whole host of human factors issues that I cant be bothered to go into as I have just got back from the middle east and it is 5 o'clock in the morning (maybe I will put in these on this thread later today) I really hope that the chap concerned does not have his career affected, as he is A1. For the Man concerned I hope you read this give me a private e-mail, we know each other really well!
regards
Tigs2
The comments on this thread have turned to complete drivvle! The incident concerned involves one of the best loved chaps in the chinook world, my thoughts go out to him. They ran out of fuel 6 miles from Baghdad International airport after passing both on-route FARPS which were inexplicibly(SP!) closed. i.e the boys had planned to re-fuel there but could not. The captain did a magnificent job of landing the ac with both engines shut down. What is wrong with having someone in the jump seat? Yes if I was in good old Blightey I would have landed by the road side.. but under these circumstances can you really blame the boys for pressing on? There is a whole host of human factors issues that I cant be bothered to go into as I have just got back from the middle east and it is 5 o'clock in the morning (maybe I will put in these on this thread later today) I really hope that the chap concerned does not have his career affected, as he is A1. For the Man concerned I hope you read this give me a private e-mail, we know each other really well!
regards
Tigs2
Last edited by Tigs2; 16th May 2003 at 12:29.
“They ran out of fuel 6 miles from Baghdad International airport after passing both en-route FARPS which were inexplicably closed. i.e the boys had planned to re-fuel there but could not. The captain did a magnificent job of landing the ac with both engines shut down.”
“Yes if I was in good old Blighty I would have landed by the road side.. but under these circumstances can you really blame the boys for pressing on?”
I wasn't there and have no idea of the circumstances, so won't comment on the cause - except to say that, notwithstanding the undoubted piloting skill of the aircraft captain, your statements make rather uncomfortable reading.
“Yes if I was in good old Blighty I would have landed by the road side.. but under these circumstances can you really blame the boys for pressing on?”
I wasn't there and have no idea of the circumstances, so won't comment on the cause - except to say that, notwithstanding the undoubted piloting skill of the aircraft captain, your statements make rather uncomfortable reading.
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He took a perfectly serviceable aircraft to the scene of the `incident`, when he should have closed down at a FARP and awaited fuel. Not quite in the same leaque as John Barber, but pretty dam close. Unless the FARP had moved leaving an unmanned insecure landing point which would gain a little sympathy and understanding.
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BEagle
YES they were shut down and insecure!! Have you ever flown those small things in an operational environment. I guess you have just flown large things at FL300. maybe operational but never in the relms of small arm or hand held anti ac misile fire. I normally have respected your posts over the last few years but frankly after your response to my last I consider you a complete T**t. You were not there, I was, you are not informed to make a judgement on the crew. As it happens the human factors incident was that a switch was selectwed off in stead of on (The fuel cross-feed!) When they hit the deck they still had 17 mins worth of fuel on one side. The error was entirely human. However there would be no way that I would have shut down at either of the INSECURED, SHUTDOWN, EMPTY OF FUEL BOWSERS FARPS. So before you start being judgemental on people who are making operational decisions whilst flying below the co-ord level at 50 ft get some credibility in that arena first!
Spot4
John Barber was an arse who ran out of fuel on a jolly in Portugal. He could have landed at any time but chose not to, despite the protestations of the crewman. His incident is no way comparable with this one. And by the way he was in a Puma - not a Chinook!Would you land at an insecure site if you knew the locals would slit your throat whilst you slept? I doubt it!
There will be an inquiry so until the facts come out why don't the pair of you just P**s off with your ill-informed judgemental statements.
YES they were shut down and insecure!! Have you ever flown those small things in an operational environment. I guess you have just flown large things at FL300. maybe operational but never in the relms of small arm or hand held anti ac misile fire. I normally have respected your posts over the last few years but frankly after your response to my last I consider you a complete T**t. You were not there, I was, you are not informed to make a judgement on the crew. As it happens the human factors incident was that a switch was selectwed off in stead of on (The fuel cross-feed!) When they hit the deck they still had 17 mins worth of fuel on one side. The error was entirely human. However there would be no way that I would have shut down at either of the INSECURED, SHUTDOWN, EMPTY OF FUEL BOWSERS FARPS. So before you start being judgemental on people who are making operational decisions whilst flying below the co-ord level at 50 ft get some credibility in that arena first!
Spot4
John Barber was an arse who ran out of fuel on a jolly in Portugal. He could have landed at any time but chose not to, despite the protestations of the crewman. His incident is no way comparable with this one. And by the way he was in a Puma - not a Chinook!Would you land at an insecure site if you knew the locals would slit your throat whilst you slept? I doubt it!
There will be an inquiry so until the facts come out why don't the pair of you just P**s off with your ill-informed judgemental statements.
Have the courtesy to re-read what I said.
I repeat, I have no idea of the circumstances so do not wish to comment upon the cause. However, your own statements do not make comfortable reading.
There is no call for personal abuse on this thread; I expect an apology.
I repeat, I have no idea of the circumstances so do not wish to comment upon the cause. However, your own statements do not make comfortable reading.
There is no call for personal abuse on this thread; I expect an apology.
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BEagle
I offer you an unresearved apology.Please accept it. You must consider that the conditions surrounding this peticular incident were rather out of the ordinary.Please read the meat of what I have said, You really should not feel uncomfortable with what I have said.It would be easy for me to delete my entry on this thread but i wil not! I am sorry but i was a little tired and emotional. Please respond/ I apologise publicly.
Kind regards
Tigs2
I offer you an unresearved apology.Please accept it. You must consider that the conditions surrounding this peticular incident were rather out of the ordinary.Please read the meat of what I have said, You really should not feel uncomfortable with what I have said.It would be easy for me to delete my entry on this thread but i wil not! I am sorry but i was a little tired and emotional. Please respond/ I apologise publicly.
Kind regards
Tigs2
Thank you - water under the bridge!
Information regarding the status/availability of the FARPS seems to have been an issue here. Out of interest, if you plan to go from point A to point C, refuelling en-route at a FARP at point B, are you expected to have enough gas upon arrival at point B to be able to return to point A if the FARP is unavailable? Or would that be too limiting in the nature of your ops?
Information regarding the status/availability of the FARPS seems to have been an issue here. Out of interest, if you plan to go from point A to point C, refuelling en-route at a FARP at point B, are you expected to have enough gas upon arrival at point B to be able to return to point A if the FARP is unavailable? Or would that be too limiting in the nature of your ops?
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Pilots doing it wrong again
Here we go again, another loss of taxpayers money caused by the (suspect) actions of pilots. Is this going to turn out like the other (unexplained) chinook crash, running out of fuel is NEGLIGENCE (gross or otherwise). as BEagle states, there should be enough fuel to TURN ROUND and go back. This is not cowardice, but a bl**dy good idea.
I most certainly did NOT say that; neither will I comment on specifics. Comment in this thread is getting perilously close to pre-judgement
In FW Ops, you keep sufficient fuel for an alternate.
But this is entirely different. If the first pre-planned FARP was unavailable, the decision as to whether to go on to the next or whether to return to the point of departure would surely need to be made based upon the situation at the time - which only those there at the time could possibly know and which armchair theorists certainly don't. Hence, if the decision to go on to the second was made in all good faith based upon the pre-flight brief that fuel would definitely be available, that was a tactical decision which must have been made based upon the credibility of that information. However, to find that the second FARP was also dry must have been as bad as the situation of diverting to your alternate, only to find it closed when you got there would be for a FW ac commander. Up $hit creek without a paddle - it's then a question of doing the best you can with what you've got left to you armed only with your own experience and skill....
In FW Ops, you keep sufficient fuel for an alternate.
But this is entirely different. If the first pre-planned FARP was unavailable, the decision as to whether to go on to the next or whether to return to the point of departure would surely need to be made based upon the situation at the time - which only those there at the time could possibly know and which armchair theorists certainly don't. Hence, if the decision to go on to the second was made in all good faith based upon the pre-flight brief that fuel would definitely be available, that was a tactical decision which must have been made based upon the credibility of that information. However, to find that the second FARP was also dry must have been as bad as the situation of diverting to your alternate, only to find it closed when you got there would be for a FW ac commander. Up $hit creek without a paddle - it's then a question of doing the best you can with what you've got left to you armed only with your own experience and skill....
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Tigs 2,
I wholeheartedly support your comments on the individual involved - can't say enough in praise of the guy!!! However, don't sink to the low level tactics of slagging someone off just because they haven't been there, done it, etc, no matter how tried and emotional you are.
The guys raise some valid questions, which will, in due course, be answered by an inquiry - our job should be to try and put into context the difficulties of SH operations in an operational environment.
I wholeheartedly support your comments on the individual involved - can't say enough in praise of the guy!!! However, don't sink to the low level tactics of slagging someone off just because they haven't been there, done it, etc, no matter how tried and emotional you are.
The guys raise some valid questions, which will, in due course, be answered by an inquiry - our job should be to try and put into context the difficulties of SH operations in an operational environment.
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Turnbull
I agree with you thanks and sorry!
BEagle your last post has put thole whole situation in to perspective, Thank you! The guys were told that the FARPS were open and subsequently did have to make some difficult decisions. They could not control what happened outside the cockpit, but they fcuked up inside. A classic human factors incident which I am sure they will kick their own arses for years to come
I agree with you thanks and sorry!
BEagle your last post has put thole whole situation in to perspective, Thank you! The guys were told that the FARPS were open and subsequently did have to make some difficult decisions. They could not control what happened outside the cockpit, but they fcuked up inside. A classic human factors incident which I am sure they will kick their own arses for years to come
Last edited by Tigs2; 17th May 2003 at 20:41.
And before anyone goes off chasing the cross-feed goose and castigate the crew for that - I'm curious. What length of duty period were the boys on that day? or the preceeding days? What was their accom like? How much distraction was there with a VVIP on board along with assorted flunkies who are noramlly all over the crew....? As Tig2 sez - a classic human factors incident compounded by the high profile nature of it. Well done the crew. I'm off to my books to lurn to be a perfect pilot like JellyWopter.
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Jelly, congratulations on your first post. Suffice to say that your opinions have been noted, and remember - first impressions count. Now kindly poke off.
If I were making my first ever post on a site for aviation professionals, I would be very careful when making casual comments about a particular crash that is very sensitive to the SH community.
I don't yet know all the details of this INcident (note the use of 'IN', not 'AC'), so you would not see me bandying the term 'negligence' around at a time like this......
...... silky ladies nighties have nothing to do with it anyway
I don't yet know all the details of this INcident (note the use of 'IN', not 'AC'), so you would not see me bandying the term 'negligence' around at a time like this......
...... silky ladies nighties have nothing to do with it anyway
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If this subject is very sensitive to the SH community, then why is it being openly discussed in a public forum. Surely some matters are better left 'in limbo' such that Joe Public is unable to make comments to the actions of the Pilots in such matters.
If the pilots acted correctly then it would be better to publish a final accurate report, so that FACTS are known and mistruths laid to rest.
Anyone who flies in such conditions (ie war) are proven heroes so why let joe public taint the truth.
If the pilots acted correctly then it would be better to publish a final accurate report, so that FACTS are known and mistruths laid to rest.
Anyone who flies in such conditions (ie war) are proven heroes so why let joe public taint the truth.
Last edited by JellyWopter; 19th May 2003 at 00:06.
Wow Jellywopter!
After your first post at the top of the page I assumed you were an ignorant intruder into this topic. With perhaps 20 or so hours on an R22? Maybe a PPL(H)?
But your last offering above must mean you have so many nuggets of wisdom to pass on after a lifetime of flying rotary, yes?Due to your intimate knowledge of Chinook ops, I must assume you fly the beast?
Please come again.
After your first post at the top of the page I assumed you were an ignorant intruder into this topic. With perhaps 20 or so hours on an R22? Maybe a PPL(H)?
But your last offering above must mean you have so many nuggets of wisdom to pass on after a lifetime of flying rotary, yes?Due to your intimate knowledge of Chinook ops, I must assume you fly the beast?
Please come again.