RAF aircraft 'hit by US missile'
Guest
Posts: n/a
The defence secretary, Geoff Hoon, told BBC1's Politics Show that "urgent reviews" were under way into the "friendly fire" incident, which has left two British airmen missing close to the Kuwaiti border.
Just wanted to be sure
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet II: I do not find it offensive, rather it is quite accurate. It was first posted on an army forum and accurately reflects the feelings of a lot of UK servicemen, the army especially who have suffered disproportionately from "friendly fire".
I will compromise with you and take the pic down if you can give me a single instance of an American serviceman being killed through British "friendly fire" in recent conflict post WW2 operations where there was clear and demonstrable negligence on the part of the perpitrators?
I am not anti-American, rather I have an issue with the gung-ho cadre of shoot first, ask the relevant questions later US servicemen. That picture may be shocking in some senses, but it makes a valid point, namely that this is not a game and people die when rash, ill-considred decisions are made or ROE ignored.
Let us for argument sake presume that the RAF Tornado shot down by a patriot was off-course and not transmitting IFF. The ROE, if stringently applied by someone with good a/c recognistion skills should have prevented, or at least dramatically lessened the chances of that incident from happening. I am all in favour of waiting to see the outcome of an investigation. Let us hope that it is not a cover-up such as the one involving the A10 pilots who hit a British Warrior AFV in GW1 who were shipped home on the same day and lost in the system long enough to bog British requests for a court-martial down in diplomatic red tape.
My feelings run very high on this issue and I decline to water them down to make anyone here feel comfortable.
I will compromise with you and take the pic down if you can give me a single instance of an American serviceman being killed through British "friendly fire" in recent conflict post WW2 operations where there was clear and demonstrable negligence on the part of the perpitrators?
I am not anti-American, rather I have an issue with the gung-ho cadre of shoot first, ask the relevant questions later US servicemen. That picture may be shocking in some senses, but it makes a valid point, namely that this is not a game and people die when rash, ill-considred decisions are made or ROE ignored.
Let us for argument sake presume that the RAF Tornado shot down by a patriot was off-course and not transmitting IFF. The ROE, if stringently applied by someone with good a/c recognistion skills should have prevented, or at least dramatically lessened the chances of that incident from happening. I am all in favour of waiting to see the outcome of an investigation. Let us hope that it is not a cover-up such as the one involving the A10 pilots who hit a British Warrior AFV in GW1 who were shipped home on the same day and lost in the system long enough to bog British requests for a court-martial down in diplomatic red tape.
My feelings run very high on this issue and I decline to water them down to make anyone here feel comfortable.
KBF.....what a load of bollocks....
You do not know what the ROE are in the situation under issue.
You do not know the sequence of events that led to the launch.
You sit there in your lounge....beer in hand....and suppose to tell those directly involved what happened.
You read criticisms by others from your side of the saltwater divide that suggests all might not be well with the RAF IFF kit and insist only the Yanks could be at fault.
There is a very real threat of attack in theather as we speak.....
The ramifications of allowing a successful Bio/Chem strike through indecision or delay justifies stringent dedication to defence of the coalition forces.
Get real! When the facts come out....then make up your mind about who/what is at fault.
As to British Blue on Blue.....read the posts....RN in the Falklands as listed above....also I recall a British Army artillery barrage that whacked British troops as well during that one. You cannot blame us for those events.....we only provided you in-direct assistance on that one.
You do not know what the ROE are in the situation under issue.
You do not know the sequence of events that led to the launch.
You sit there in your lounge....beer in hand....and suppose to tell those directly involved what happened.
You read criticisms by others from your side of the saltwater divide that suggests all might not be well with the RAF IFF kit and insist only the Yanks could be at fault.
There is a very real threat of attack in theather as we speak.....
The ramifications of allowing a successful Bio/Chem strike through indecision or delay justifies stringent dedication to defence of the coalition forces.
Get real! When the facts come out....then make up your mind about who/what is at fault.
As to British Blue on Blue.....read the posts....RN in the Falklands as listed above....also I recall a British Army artillery barrage that whacked British troops as well during that one. You cannot blame us for those events.....we only provided you in-direct assistance on that one.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Bedrock
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kbf1,
First of all, have you ever served in the military - do you have any sense of the "fog of war"? There have always been instances of friendly fire - and there always will be. You are not dealing with airliners on final approach but an ever changing and fluid environment.
Second, imagine the flip side. Iraqi aircraft studying and then copying our flight profiles - just so one aircraft can get in and drop anthrax or vx.
We have seen friendly fire too much - our Air Force took out a couple of Blackhawks a few years ago, the Marines biggest loss in the last Gulf War was some LAV's destroyed by A-10's.
Friendly fire, always regretable, happens.
First of all, have you ever served in the military - do you have any sense of the "fog of war"? There have always been instances of friendly fire - and there always will be. You are not dealing with airliners on final approach but an ever changing and fluid environment.
Second, imagine the flip side. Iraqi aircraft studying and then copying our flight profiles - just so one aircraft can get in and drop anthrax or vx.
We have seen friendly fire too much - our Air Force took out a couple of Blackhawks a few years ago, the Marines biggest loss in the last Gulf War was some LAV's destroyed by A-10's.
Friendly fire, always regretable, happens.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just hit the delete button rather than post what I was about to, frankly my piss is boiling with anger and I have already spent long enough on the phone with £6 on this subject today. I could be arguing the point till we are all blue in the face.
I will say a couple of things:
1. 9 years service and counting thanks. Operated with the yanks before, mixed feelings about them. Good guys, overly gung-ho at times which worries me and a lot of Brits.
2. You can argue this from all sides with endless possibilities, just as you can a TEWTS.
3. Last time in the Gulf we lost more servicemen to blue-on-blue than to enemy action. Thus far the same tally applies. It is about time some difficult questions were asked of the Americans.
4. I'm entitled to my opinion even if it disagrees with yours.
I will say a couple of things:
1. 9 years service and counting thanks. Operated with the yanks before, mixed feelings about them. Good guys, overly gung-ho at times which worries me and a lot of Brits.
2. You can argue this from all sides with endless possibilities, just as you can a TEWTS.
3. Last time in the Gulf we lost more servicemen to blue-on-blue than to enemy action. Thus far the same tally applies. It is about time some difficult questions were asked of the Americans.
4. I'm entitled to my opinion even if it disagrees with yours.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Deepest Oxfordshire
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bad Taste
kbf1
SASless and I do not always (usually?) see eye-to-eye - we have crossed swords before on this forum on the subject of this war.
BUT in this case I agree wholeheartedly with him. The time for arguing the rights and wrongs has passed. We are at war, we are allies, the facts are anything but known. Saddam's cronies have internet access.
Your graphic is in bad taste and I join SASless and Jet II in asking you to remove it immediately.
Gadget
(Edited by Captain Gadget on realisation that said graphic had just been deleted): Good thinking, Batman.
(Edited again on realising that it was Capt PPRune himself who had deleted said graphic): Not quick enough, Batman. Thanks, Danny.
Jet II: I do not find it offensive, rather it is quite accurate.
BUT in this case I agree wholeheartedly with him. The time for arguing the rights and wrongs has passed. We are at war, we are allies, the facts are anything but known. Saddam's cronies have internet access.
Your graphic is in bad taste and I join SASless and Jet II in asking you to remove it immediately.
Gadget
(Edited by Captain Gadget on realisation that said graphic had just been deleted): Good thinking, Batman.
(Edited again on realising that it was Capt PPRune himself who had deleted said graphic): Not quick enough, Batman. Thanks, Danny.
Last edited by Captain Gadget; 23rd Mar 2003 at 17:41.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kbf1
#1 You ARE entitled to your opinion and you are free to state it. How you state it will directly determine the response you receive.
#2 Your posts have been tasteless, insensitive and inflamatory. We do not know the facts yet you already have someone to blame. If you have spent 9 years in military service as you say, then you must have learned something about waiting for the truth to be fully disclosed before rendering a verdict. It's my guess that you just like to bash Americans, you have an old grudge that hasn't been resolved to YOUR satisfaction so you use this forum to put the two together in an infantile rant unbecoming of a true member of HM service. Seek some therapy, before you implode.
#1 You ARE entitled to your opinion and you are free to state it. How you state it will directly determine the response you receive.
#2 Your posts have been tasteless, insensitive and inflamatory. We do not know the facts yet you already have someone to blame. If you have spent 9 years in military service as you say, then you must have learned something about waiting for the truth to be fully disclosed before rendering a verdict. It's my guess that you just like to bash Americans, you have an old grudge that hasn't been resolved to YOUR satisfaction so you use this forum to put the two together in an infantile rant unbecoming of a true member of HM service. Seek some therapy, before you implode.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kbf1, I find it offensive and I have removed it. You don't know all the facts yet but you don't hesitate to jump in and level accusations about gung-hoism. Were you there? How familiar are you with the operation and decision making flow of a Patriot missile battery? Not very I wouldn't hesitate to presume.
Have you ever been in actual combat? Have any of those posters above who are so quick to show their anti-American ever actually been in combat? I don't just mean as part of some resupply umit or logistics unit but as part of a front line combat unit? I doubt it and it shows. The confusion of what is actually going on is acute. You only have to watch the embedded reporters asking soldiers they are with if they know exactly what is happening and their disappointment when they don't get a decisive reply.
This 'blue on blue' incident is tragic and no doubt lessons will be learned from it but jumping in here and venting off on our allies is premature and uneccesary. It's bad enough trying to stop the vocal minority of anti-war/anti American from swamping some of the threads on this site without giving them moral support from those who are quick to condemn without all the facts.
Specualtion on what happened is fine but conclusions with comments that show acute prejudice are not welcome.
Have you ever been in actual combat? Have any of those posters above who are so quick to show their anti-American ever actually been in combat? I don't just mean as part of some resupply umit or logistics unit but as part of a front line combat unit? I doubt it and it shows. The confusion of what is actually going on is acute. You only have to watch the embedded reporters asking soldiers they are with if they know exactly what is happening and their disappointment when they don't get a decisive reply.
This 'blue on blue' incident is tragic and no doubt lessons will be learned from it but jumping in here and venting off on our allies is premature and uneccesary. It's bad enough trying to stop the vocal minority of anti-war/anti American from swamping some of the threads on this site without giving them moral support from those who are quick to condemn without all the facts.
Specualtion on what happened is fine but conclusions with comments that show acute prejudice are not welcome.
Ah, but Gadget...we did so in an honorable fashion I hope....really!
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
question
in GWI RAF/AAC borrowed M4 Mk X IFF from the Americans, and handed it back after the war
the question is, did they borrow the (NATO standard!) kit agian this time or has the UK MOD installed it by now?
keep in mind, for a ground base air defence operator it is way worse than to let slip a valid (high speed, jamming, negative IFF, non ACO) target trough than to kill a vital target in weapons free / TBM automatic that in this case sadly turned out to be a friendly
hope GWII will be short and decisive, good luck to every one out there
the question is, did they borrow the (NATO standard!) kit agian this time or has the UK MOD installed it by now?
keep in mind, for a ground base air defence operator it is way worse than to let slip a valid (high speed, jamming, negative IFF, non ACO) target trough than to kill a vital target in weapons free / TBM automatic that in this case sadly turned out to be a friendly
hope GWII will be short and decisive, good luck to every one out there
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lincs
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have logged onto this thread seeking news of close friends – as, I suspect, will many others. I can barely believe some of the insensitive and bigoted nonsense that I have read and would not expect it of the gutter press, much less professional military aviators.
I have served around the world alongside US Forces, including operationally in this theatre – I have only ever found them to be meticulous professionals.
Kbf1 – I am appalled by your pious and ill-informed comments. That we lose more lives to fratricide than enemy action could be taken as a fairly dramatic measure of the efficiency of the US at engaging the enemy.
Of course, we must strive to reduce the chance of blue-on-blue engagements but fratricide is a harsh reality of warfare and often the function of human frailty, amplified under the stress of combat. I trust that those contributors with some clever point to make are entirely familiar with their own performance under demanding and harrowing circumstances. If so, they should be ashamed of their entirely inappropriate and offensive comments. If not, then I suggest that these PC warriors keep their comments to themselves and learn some respect for better men and women.
I have served around the world alongside US Forces, including operationally in this theatre – I have only ever found them to be meticulous professionals.
Kbf1 – I am appalled by your pious and ill-informed comments. That we lose more lives to fratricide than enemy action could be taken as a fairly dramatic measure of the efficiency of the US at engaging the enemy.
Of course, we must strive to reduce the chance of blue-on-blue engagements but fratricide is a harsh reality of warfare and often the function of human frailty, amplified under the stress of combat. I trust that those contributors with some clever point to make are entirely familiar with their own performance under demanding and harrowing circumstances. If so, they should be ashamed of their entirely inappropriate and offensive comments. If not, then I suggest that these PC warriors keep their comments to themselves and learn some respect for better men and women.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Deepest Oxfordshire
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr SASless, Sir
Of course. As I have said previously elsewhere on this forum, the time has come to climb off the fence.
I considerably outstrip kbf1 in years of service (although out of the mob now), and I am privileged to have spent much of my time working with colleagues from the US. I am pleased to say that I never found issue either with their professionalism or with their dedication to duty, although admittedly I did always have to train them to make a decent cup of tea.
The missile operators, as well as the Tornado aircrew and their families, are in my thoughts and prayers this evening. So are those myopic gits who think that they could have done better and won't do this tragedy the courtesy of waiting for the evidence.
Yours aye
Gadget
Ah, but Gadget...we did so in an honorable fashion I hope....really!
I considerably outstrip kbf1 in years of service (although out of the mob now), and I am privileged to have spent much of my time working with colleagues from the US. I am pleased to say that I never found issue either with their professionalism or with their dedication to duty, although admittedly I did always have to train them to make a decent cup of tea.
The missile operators, as well as the Tornado aircrew and their families, are in my thoughts and prayers this evening. So are those myopic gits who think that they could have done better and won't do this tragedy the courtesy of waiting for the evidence.
Yours aye
Gadget
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cool wet grass.................
I think a few people on this website should calm down their vitriol a bit.
Banter is always good, but slagging Yanks for their possible (I say again possible) errors, is frankly disrespectful to the victims of such tragedies, and I think that journos should get a day off from abuse under todays circumstances.
there, piece said.
feel a lot better now
Banter is always good, but slagging Yanks for their possible (I say again possible) errors, is frankly disrespectful to the victims of such tragedies, and I think that journos should get a day off from abuse under todays circumstances.
there, piece said.
feel a lot better now
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Deepest Oxfordshire
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cool wet grass....
Tourist
Couldn't agree more. mate. However, you might get more readership if you renamed your thread...come to think of it, perhaps allusions to grass (freshly mown?) might not be in terribly good taste anyway?
Gadget
Couldn't agree more. mate. However, you might get more readership if you renamed your thread...come to think of it, perhaps allusions to grass (freshly mown?) might not be in terribly good taste anyway?
Gadget
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WBoy
Has there ever been a major conflict withou friendl fire casualties? I am not a military historian, but gut tells me it would be rare for that to occur.
The fact that those are the majority of the total casualties may say something about the early success of this mission. Frankly, I don't put much stock in such analysis, lets wait till this war is over before we tally up all the mistakes.
Has there ever been a major conflict withou friendl fire casualties? I am not a military historian, but gut tells me it would be rare for that to occur.
The fact that those are the majority of the total casualties may say something about the early success of this mission. Frankly, I don't put much stock in such analysis, lets wait till this war is over before we tally up all the mistakes.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Bedrock
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We quite often had exchange officers from the Royal Navy in our Marine Corps squadrons - damn good people - and if you are ever in a scrape, the first people you want on your side are the Brits and Aussies. My condolences - as I am sure the rest of America's - goes out to the families of the Tornado pilots.
(and to Captain Gadget - I am one of those Americans who could never figure out hot tea - or soccer for that matter...)
(and to Captain Gadget - I am one of those Americans who could never figure out hot tea - or soccer for that matter...)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
WB SATCO, I find the fact there have been only a handful of casualties due to enemy action thankful. I pray that it remains that way, but fear that they will escalate as Baghdad is approached.
And those casualties will be overwhelmingly suffered by the Americans, British forces staying in the south to clear up around Basra.
And those casualties will be overwhelmingly suffered by the Americans, British forces staying in the south to clear up around Basra.