More fun & games in the Magic Kingdom
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Devils Advocate.....
I read with great interest some of the recent comments in the string. Although, I must admit to being surprised about the MM's vest, I thought I was the only person to privately purchase one!
Just as an aside, could you imagine the legal ramifications post a situation that saw (God Forbid) another shooting of a BAE SYSTEMS person, and it came to public knowledge that a member of the KSA EXEC purchased a vest, using company funds, because of an identified threat to us all. I think the company as a whole would be hung out to dry, on the issue of "Due Care and Diligence". So taking that into account, do you think this rumor has any substance?
As for concerns regarding those helping to secure our compounds, I would agree and urge you to pass on your thoughts and observations via Izzy5. Speaking from experience, it is the only way things will get better, please make the effort. If, you are not satisfied with the reply that you get, I know one person who would be more than happy to listen to you and pass along your concerns to those concerned...Paul Dugan.
I had debated whether to make this comment or not. However, I think the members of this forum will appreciate an insight based upon a different perspective. The current Head of Security may well not come across in a manner that is appreciated by some, and consequently attract a number of negative comments. But I think you should know that he is one of those individuals that has "actively" contributed to the improved security measures that we see in place today. His enthusiasm, and dedication have in part resulted in many tangible improvements. Believe me when I say he has made a difference along with others.
As usual Gents, I will look forward to your comments and thoughts....swing easy, and of course happy landings!!
I read with great interest some of the recent comments in the string. Although, I must admit to being surprised about the MM's vest, I thought I was the only person to privately purchase one!
Just as an aside, could you imagine the legal ramifications post a situation that saw (God Forbid) another shooting of a BAE SYSTEMS person, and it came to public knowledge that a member of the KSA EXEC purchased a vest, using company funds, because of an identified threat to us all. I think the company as a whole would be hung out to dry, on the issue of "Due Care and Diligence". So taking that into account, do you think this rumor has any substance?
As for concerns regarding those helping to secure our compounds, I would agree and urge you to pass on your thoughts and observations via Izzy5. Speaking from experience, it is the only way things will get better, please make the effort. If, you are not satisfied with the reply that you get, I know one person who would be more than happy to listen to you and pass along your concerns to those concerned...Paul Dugan.
I had debated whether to make this comment or not. However, I think the members of this forum will appreciate an insight based upon a different perspective. The current Head of Security may well not come across in a manner that is appreciated by some, and consequently attract a number of negative comments. But I think you should know that he is one of those individuals that has "actively" contributed to the improved security measures that we see in place today. His enthusiasm, and dedication have in part resulted in many tangible improvements. Believe me when I say he has made a difference along with others.
As usual Gents, I will look forward to your comments and thoughts....swing easy, and of course happy landings!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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LoA,
Well to answer your question.. Yes, I do think this rumor has substance. It's funny you said for us to go to Izzy5 to voice our questions because that is where I was told that "MM" had his body armour!!
Truth is that I really do not believe much about what BAe tells us. I do believe that Paul Dugan has made a number of efforts on our behalf and I have thanked him for that. The HoS has done a nice job over the security improvements but then again isn't that his job? I remember my feelings when he basically told us that we should have expected the events of May12th and why were we so surprized! I also remember being told there was no asbestos in the PC-9 only to find out a few days later that a number of the airframes were riddled with the stuff.
"Due Care and Diligence" you say.. well based on past performance is it any wonder that we don't believe or have confidence in BAe management!
I look forward to your comments and thoughts
Just as an aside, could you imagine the legal ramifications post a situation that saw (God Forbid) another shooting of a BAE SYSTEMS person, and it came to public knowledge that a member of the KSA EXEC purchased a vest, using company funds, because of an identified threat to us all. I think the company as a whole would be hung out to dry, on the issue of "Due Care and Diligence". So taking that into account, do you think this rumor has any substance?
Truth is that I really do not believe much about what BAe tells us. I do believe that Paul Dugan has made a number of efforts on our behalf and I have thanked him for that. The HoS has done a nice job over the security improvements but then again isn't that his job? I remember my feelings when he basically told us that we should have expected the events of May12th and why were we so surprized! I also remember being told there was no asbestos in the PC-9 only to find out a few days later that a number of the airframes were riddled with the stuff.
"Due Care and Diligence" you say.. well based on past performance is it any wonder that we don't believe or have confidence in BAe management!
I look forward to your comments and thoughts
Join Date: Feb 2001
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As an aside to the "I know f*** all" story, I have just been reading part two of David Niven's autobiography, published in 1975.
He attributes that very quote to Michael Curtiz, the Hungarian born director of Charge of the Light Brigade which was made in 1936 and in which Niven played alongside Errol Flynn. Curtiz was infamous for these bloopers - when he wanted the riderless horse on set he called "Bring on the Empty Horses" -which Niven took as the title of the book.
Now, I suspect that 1975 (and certainly 1936!) was before any Saudi Colonels/Generals could have made that quote - anyone got an earlier example? Perhaps they were just inspired by Mr Curtiz.
He attributes that very quote to Michael Curtiz, the Hungarian born director of Charge of the Light Brigade which was made in 1936 and in which Niven played alongside Errol Flynn. Curtiz was infamous for these bloopers - when he wanted the riderless horse on set he called "Bring on the Empty Horses" -which Niven took as the title of the book.
Now, I suspect that 1975 (and certainly 1936!) was before any Saudi Colonels/Generals could have made that quote - anyone got an earlier example? Perhaps they were just inspired by Mr Curtiz.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Repudiation
Message for "Adrian Mole", sorry to say that my real name is not Henry, nor is it Paul, Tom, Dick or Harry
Saudi PC-9, I very much doubt "MM" has a vest, such a source in IZY5 is plying "misinformation" and wouldn't be involved in such a purchase anyway. Why don't you ask PD, I am sure he will give you a straight answer.
I really can't comment on the engineering statement regarding asbestos, but I am sure such it was based upon the majority of the airframes within the fleet. Am I right in thinking despite the "stringent" requirements of the RSAF, it also received a number of PC-9's that contained asbestos in the Fire Bulkhead from Pilatus....despite their remonstrations that they didn't and a number were returned to the manufacturer?
You have to give a person the benefit of the doubt at least once. You can't believe that there was any malice a forethought to get you to fly an aircraft that would result in the damage to your health...surely?
As for the HoS doing his job.... your right he is, as he always has, but some of the initial comments in this string didn't recognise that...I am pleased to see that later comments do. Anyway enough of the "parachute packer for now"....
Keep well, swing easy and happy landings
Saudi PC-9, I very much doubt "MM" has a vest, such a source in IZY5 is plying "misinformation" and wouldn't be involved in such a purchase anyway. Why don't you ask PD, I am sure he will give you a straight answer.
I really can't comment on the engineering statement regarding asbestos, but I am sure such it was based upon the majority of the airframes within the fleet. Am I right in thinking despite the "stringent" requirements of the RSAF, it also received a number of PC-9's that contained asbestos in the Fire Bulkhead from Pilatus....despite their remonstrations that they didn't and a number were returned to the manufacturer?
You have to give a person the benefit of the doubt at least once. You can't believe that there was any malice a forethought to get you to fly an aircraft that would result in the damage to your health...surely?
As for the HoS doing his job.... your right he is, as he always has, but some of the initial comments in this string didn't recognise that...I am pleased to see that later comments do. Anyway enough of the "parachute packer for now"....
Keep well, swing easy and happy landings
Join Date: Nov 2001
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LoA,
Honestly I could care less if there wasn't any malice wrt the asbestos issue. The incompetence was the issue which concerned me most. I learned long ago that when you stand up infront of a crowd of professionals you had better know what the hell you are talking about or you will forever be branded as an idiot. You say go to izzy5 and ask and I tell you I did. Now you say that Izzy 5 shouldn't know anyway. Which is it?
Why should we be giving management the benefit of the doubt? After numerous foul-ups and mismanagement, I for one do not believe that BAe deserves to be given the benefit of any doubt. If I was as bad at my job as Bae management seem to be then I would have been fired by the RSAF long ago.
What I am saying in a long winded way is ... raise your game, be more professional and be better at your jobs. There are those who are doing this but BAe needs to seriously look at the way it does business. Otherwise cockups such as in Kuwait, which is going on right now, will continue to happen.
Honestly I could care less if there wasn't any malice wrt the asbestos issue. The incompetence was the issue which concerned me most. I learned long ago that when you stand up infront of a crowd of professionals you had better know what the hell you are talking about or you will forever be branded as an idiot. You say go to izzy5 and ask and I tell you I did. Now you say that Izzy 5 shouldn't know anyway. Which is it?
Why should we be giving management the benefit of the doubt? After numerous foul-ups and mismanagement, I for one do not believe that BAe deserves to be given the benefit of any doubt. If I was as bad at my job as Bae management seem to be then I would have been fired by the RSAF long ago.
What I am saying in a long winded way is ... raise your game, be more professional and be better at your jobs. There are those who are doing this but BAe needs to seriously look at the way it does business. Otherwise cockups such as in Kuwait, which is going on right now, will continue to happen.
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Any thoughts on the Arab News article 14/08/03 that stated 180 or so local Bae employees plan to sue the company for equal pay and conditions as the expates - including, wait for it - the extraordinary bonus for being in country at such a difficult time?? Am I missing something here or does this seem ridiculous? Will the company make a stand or will we see the inglorious backdown and truely grovelling letter of apology after their attempts to make about 200 of the local employees turn up to collect their pay check? Personally I don't know of any local employees who make any worthwhile contribution to the end product.
Saudi PC-9, I was reading back through the thread and I saw your post of 21 March,
"I can tell you one thing, BWoS better be very careful. One more "incident" and there will be a mass exodus. I know, I am one of them. I had to promise my wife that I would leave if something else happened when I took her to the airport.
There will not be many folks who will be willing to stay regardless of the money."
I am not criticising you, but I guess the fact is that despite compound bombing, shootings etc etc, people are not leaving in the numbers expected, and I, like you, obviously think it is still worthwhile staying. It is either this or we are just becoming desensitised to the news and are working on the assumption that things surely do not get any worse?
LoA, we could well ask PD about the vest and other annomalies of our glorious leader MM. I have great admiration for GMCA and I think he has been a rock in these difficult times. However if I have a critisism, there is a tendancy to say what people want to hear. The obvious example here is the pre-war quote that, "... if we have to end up living in fortresses with barbed wire and armed guards, it is time for us all to go home..."
Saudi PC-9, I was reading back through the thread and I saw your post of 21 March,
"I can tell you one thing, BWoS better be very careful. One more "incident" and there will be a mass exodus. I know, I am one of them. I had to promise my wife that I would leave if something else happened when I took her to the airport.
There will not be many folks who will be willing to stay regardless of the money."
I am not criticising you, but I guess the fact is that despite compound bombing, shootings etc etc, people are not leaving in the numbers expected, and I, like you, obviously think it is still worthwhile staying. It is either this or we are just becoming desensitised to the news and are working on the assumption that things surely do not get any worse?
LoA, we could well ask PD about the vest and other annomalies of our glorious leader MM. I have great admiration for GMCA and I think he has been a rock in these difficult times. However if I have a critisism, there is a tendancy to say what people want to hear. The obvious example here is the pre-war quote that, "... if we have to end up living in fortresses with barbed wire and armed guards, it is time for us all to go home..."
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Capt M,
Yes I did say that back then and I believed it to be true. I think that most (like myself) are going for a more controlled departure. I certainly will not be staying for as long as I had first thought. Having said that, the number of families who have left is quite high I believe. If my compound is anything to go by at least half of the villas are empty.
Interesting to note that all we had from BAe on the last shooting was a circular from Paul Dugan and that was it.
Perhaps everyone is hoping that if they close their eyes this situation will go away. Mmmmm I think that is how the Saudi's have gotten themselves into this mess in the first place.
Yes I did say that back then and I believed it to be true. I think that most (like myself) are going for a more controlled departure. I certainly will not be staying for as long as I had first thought. Having said that, the number of families who have left is quite high I believe. If my compound is anything to go by at least half of the villas are empty.
Interesting to note that all we had from BAe on the last shooting was a circular from Paul Dugan and that was it.
Perhaps everyone is hoping that if they close their eyes this situation will go away. Mmmmm I think that is how the Saudi's have gotten themselves into this mess in the first place.
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Ever heard about the frog in the boiling water theory?
If you place a frog into hot water it will immediately leap out (well, duh.....). However one can place a frog in cold water and slowly heat it. The frog doesn't notice the water heating up until it's too late and presto, boiled frog.
In my case the water temperature started becoming noticeably warm after 9/11.
IMHO the terrorist activity in KSA since 9/11 (and before that too, I guess) in symtomatic of a country teetering on the brink of a sudden (and quite possibly violent) drop into anarchy.
Glad I've done my time.
If you place a frog into hot water it will immediately leap out (well, duh.....). However one can place a frog in cold water and slowly heat it. The frog doesn't notice the water heating up until it's too late and presto, boiled frog.
In my case the water temperature started becoming noticeably warm after 9/11.
IMHO the terrorist activity in KSA since 9/11 (and before that too, I guess) in symtomatic of a country teetering on the brink of a sudden (and quite possibly violent) drop into anarchy.
Glad I've done my time.
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oh-oh,
I don't have the full facts on Kuwait and what is going on there, but suffice to say the Kuwait's are not very happy and it has to do with some shabby manager. I think I'll let others who are more informed on the situation write about it.
I don't have the full facts on Kuwait and what is going on there, but suffice to say the Kuwait's are not very happy and it has to do with some shabby manager. I think I'll let others who are more informed on the situation write about it.
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The rumours about Kuwait may well have substance, the blame could well be credited to management specifically (no names I'm afraid). Things are "under review" at the moment and let's just give "BWOS" management time to prove they can come up with the goods when the chips are down.
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How's the flying?
Since I didn't get a reply from my personal inquiries: "Could anybody tell me a little bit more about the actual FLYING part of your business over there?" I'm very curious myself and have been following your forum with great interest the last couple of weeks. Kind of quiet lately unfortunately.
Again: a lot of interesting stuff, except I miss the flying part of the Magic Kingdom. I hope it isn't that bad that it's not worth mentioning. Certainly the PC-9 would be a nice aircraft to fly for example.
Guys, please let me know, either on the forum or in a personal message. I would be much obliged.
C ya.
Flaender
Again: a lot of interesting stuff, except I miss the flying part of the Magic Kingdom. I hope it isn't that bad that it's not worth mentioning. Certainly the PC-9 would be a nice aircraft to fly for example.
Guys, please let me know, either on the forum or in a personal message. I would be much obliged.
C ya.
Flaender
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Flaender,
Yes - sorry - tendancy to ramble. especially when there is a chance to talk about ourselves. The flying is ok but not exactly inspirational. PC9 is a nice enough aircraft and as it only seems to have about 4 moving parts, so not that difficult to maintain. The job is basically pilots course to the Saudi Airforce, shamelessly plagerized from from the RAF, RAAF, CAF and RNZAF. They can't and won't do it themselves so they pay hired guns. I say not inspirational because all the QFI's here have generally come from jobs in their respective airforces around the world, were experienced and reasonably high up in the pecking order. As such, the flying was challenging, exiting and quite at the cutting edge of the instructional world. The freedom and respect was generally commensurate with experience. In this outfit, it is quite the opposite. The flying is completely procedural, repetitive, strickly within the rules (at the cost of your job) and there is no rewards for initiative or lateral thought. In fact, it's positively discouraged - makes the Saudi officers face their own inadequacies. Theoretically we teach visual flying (Aero's, circuits, spins, stalls, etc) Instrument (probably to about commercial level), some reasonably advanced formation, navigation and night flying. That is not to say you don't get glimmers of exitement on a formation mission or a low nav through the desert, but generally it is trying to teach cripples who sometimes have the retention of pond slime. I think it's fair to say that the job and the flying do not rate as a motivation to come here. The positives are great money, lots of family time, time off and travel. The negatives are working for third world control freaks, a halt in your professional development and, as you may have gathered, possible death via a crazed muslim. Most guys seem to last about 5 years before the 'there has got to be more to life than this' aspect of work wears them down. If they have been careful and not followed the investment advice of eachother, you walk away well set up.
Yes - sorry - tendancy to ramble. especially when there is a chance to talk about ourselves. The flying is ok but not exactly inspirational. PC9 is a nice enough aircraft and as it only seems to have about 4 moving parts, so not that difficult to maintain. The job is basically pilots course to the Saudi Airforce, shamelessly plagerized from from the RAF, RAAF, CAF and RNZAF. They can't and won't do it themselves so they pay hired guns. I say not inspirational because all the QFI's here have generally come from jobs in their respective airforces around the world, were experienced and reasonably high up in the pecking order. As such, the flying was challenging, exiting and quite at the cutting edge of the instructional world. The freedom and respect was generally commensurate with experience. In this outfit, it is quite the opposite. The flying is completely procedural, repetitive, strickly within the rules (at the cost of your job) and there is no rewards for initiative or lateral thought. In fact, it's positively discouraged - makes the Saudi officers face their own inadequacies. Theoretically we teach visual flying (Aero's, circuits, spins, stalls, etc) Instrument (probably to about commercial level), some reasonably advanced formation, navigation and night flying. That is not to say you don't get glimmers of exitement on a formation mission or a low nav through the desert, but generally it is trying to teach cripples who sometimes have the retention of pond slime. I think it's fair to say that the job and the flying do not rate as a motivation to come here. The positives are great money, lots of family time, time off and travel. The negatives are working for third world control freaks, a halt in your professional development and, as you may have gathered, possible death via a crazed muslim. Most guys seem to last about 5 years before the 'there has got to be more to life than this' aspect of work wears them down. If they have been careful and not followed the investment advice of eachother, you walk away well set up.
'Most seem to last about 5 years before the 'there has got to be more to life than this' aspect of work wears them down.'
Isn't that what Jamie Lee Curtis said when acting the part of a (very shapely!) prostitute in the movie 'Trading Places'?
Isn't that what Jamie Lee Curtis said when acting the part of a (very shapely!) prostitute in the movie 'Trading Places'?