Lightning v F16
Thread Starter
Lightning v F16
Hello folks...
Here's a Q from a big Lightning fan:
Any of you people seen a RAF Lightning beating an F-16 in ACM (ie dogfighting)? Would love to see any such pics if you point their location on the web to me (or even if you don't mind posting one!)Here's one I took off a book for example but no F-16s are included..:
Having asked this -if there are any Lightning pilots out there who wouldn't mind answering: who would be the most difficult ACM a/c to face in a Lightning?
Any particularly formidable foes (not necessarily from the UK)?
Cheers
Here's a Q from a big Lightning fan:
Any of you people seen a RAF Lightning beating an F-16 in ACM (ie dogfighting)? Would love to see any such pics if you point their location on the web to me (or even if you don't mind posting one!)Here's one I took off a book for example but no F-16s are included..:
Having asked this -if there are any Lightning pilots out there who wouldn't mind answering: who would be the most difficult ACM a/c to face in a Lightning?
Any particularly formidable foes (not necessarily from the UK)?
Cheers
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Sorry, can't speak from an Air Defender's perspective, but I know one thing....
I'd give a spherical to have a pole around in either!!!
Good supposition, I hope there are experts out there who are willing to give this thread their all!
BD
I'd give a spherical to have a pole around in either!!!
Good supposition, I hope there are experts out there who are willing to give this thread their all!
BD
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Evening all, new member, first post.
The following was written by ex-Lightning driver Chris Allan about 1v1 ACM with a Belgian AF 349 Sqn F-16A flown by Capt. De Vos Herman......After 5 - 6 minutes in full 'burner (I'd just refuelled), pulling and pushing into +6/-2G manouevres, I allowed myself the thought that I was doing better than OK against Herman's high tech American hot rod. Then it happened. Herman suddenly zocked into my six, taking enough film for a couple of Hollwood movies.
Back on the ground, I asked 'Fox' (Herman's nickname) 'What did you do?-I mean, you came from nowhere.'
Fox replied, 'Oh, I was finding it a bit difficult so I used my afterburner......'
Oof, squire....
Regards, RP
The following was written by ex-Lightning driver Chris Allan about 1v1 ACM with a Belgian AF 349 Sqn F-16A flown by Capt. De Vos Herman......After 5 - 6 minutes in full 'burner (I'd just refuelled), pulling and pushing into +6/-2G manouevres, I allowed myself the thought that I was doing better than OK against Herman's high tech American hot rod. Then it happened. Herman suddenly zocked into my six, taking enough film for a couple of Hollwood movies.
Back on the ground, I asked 'Fox' (Herman's nickname) 'What did you do?-I mean, you came from nowhere.'
Fox replied, 'Oh, I was finding it a bit difficult so I used my afterburner......'
Oof, squire....
Regards, RP
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Basically, anything with a radar missile would ruin your day. The poor old Red Top was limited to about 30 degrees off the tail, something that was damn difficult to acheive, especially against an aircraft like an F-16. I've got a picture in my log book taken from the gun camera (mounted at the bottom of the air intake - hence the pitot tube appears in the frame) of an F-16 being bayonetted in germany, but I snuck up on him when he wasn't looking. I can remember a 2v2 against French Mirage 3s overhead Paris (yes, I do mean overhead Paris) with a base height of 30,000ft!
I wouldn't have liked to go to war in a Lightning, but what fun! The best flying club I ever joined! Christmas present was a Mk3 with the belly tank removed. Hold burners (not 86%) against brakes until the tyre slips around the rim, let the brakes go and airborne before the first RHAG, pure vertical climb until there is enough fuel to come back down, break and land, filerup again and let someone else have a go!
And the ability to smell a tanker when it was still on its take-off roll. What a life, I'd give anything to go back and do it all again!
I wouldn't have liked to go to war in a Lightning, but what fun! The best flying club I ever joined! Christmas present was a Mk3 with the belly tank removed. Hold burners (not 86%) against brakes until the tyre slips around the rim, let the brakes go and airborne before the first RHAG, pure vertical climb until there is enough fuel to come back down, break and land, filerup again and let someone else have a go!
And the ability to smell a tanker when it was still on its take-off roll. What a life, I'd give anything to go back and do it all again!
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I got a one of those in cockpit video thingies about the place somewhere, it shows a Lightning driver setting up a Redtop shot at a target, seemed a hell of a lot of button pushing, screen changes and curser moving about it to me, especialy if yer trying to hang on to somebodies ar-se who knows yer there.
But what the hell does Drapes know about it, he was just a radio operator on a Ford Escort.
But what the hell does Drapes know about it, he was just a radio operator on a Ford Escort.
Thread Starter
Nice stuff...
Ali:
>Basically, anything with a radar missile would ruin your day.
You shouldn't complain the F-16 in those days had no radar missiles!
Having said that I recall reading a sortie by the Binbrook CO 1v2 Tornados in their early days when they had Foxhunter problems. He beat 'em both in both the setups they flew against each other!!
>The poor old Red Top was limited to about 30 degrees off the tail, something that was damn difficult to acheive, especially against an aircraft like an F-16.
Is that why Ian Black said 'in a guns only fight the Lightning could still make the eyes of electric jet pilots water'?!
>I've got a picture in my log book taken from the gun camera (mounted at the bottom of the air intake - hence the pitot tube appears in the frame) of an F-16 being bayonetted in germany, but I snuck up on him when he wasn't looking.
...Nice Btw isn't that the thing tactics try to achieve? Entering a fight unseen before the bogeys have time to react?
>I can remember a 2v2 against French Mirage 3s overhead Paris (yes, I do mean overhead Paris) with a base height of 30,000ft!
Erghh who won? Having mentioned that which aircraft of that generation could give a Lightning more problems? A Phantom? A Mirage F1?
>Christmas present was a Mk3 with the belly tank removed. Hold burners (not 86%) against brakes until the tyre slips around the rim, let the brakes go and airborne before the first RHAG, pure vertical climb until there is enough fuel to come back down
Does that mean that a ventralless F3 could sustain the vertical for much longer than an F6? Excuse my ignorance...
cheers
Ali:
>Basically, anything with a radar missile would ruin your day.
You shouldn't complain the F-16 in those days had no radar missiles!
Having said that I recall reading a sortie by the Binbrook CO 1v2 Tornados in their early days when they had Foxhunter problems. He beat 'em both in both the setups they flew against each other!!
>The poor old Red Top was limited to about 30 degrees off the tail, something that was damn difficult to acheive, especially against an aircraft like an F-16.
Is that why Ian Black said 'in a guns only fight the Lightning could still make the eyes of electric jet pilots water'?!
>I've got a picture in my log book taken from the gun camera (mounted at the bottom of the air intake - hence the pitot tube appears in the frame) of an F-16 being bayonetted in germany, but I snuck up on him when he wasn't looking.
...Nice
Btw isn't that the thing tactics try to achieve? Entering a fight unseen before the bogeys have time to react? >I can remember a 2v2 against French Mirage 3s overhead Paris (yes, I do mean overhead Paris) with a base height of 30,000ft!
Erghh who won?
Having mentioned that which aircraft of that generation could give a Lightning more problems? A Phantom? A Mirage F1?>Christmas present was a Mk3 with the belly tank removed. Hold burners (not 86%) against brakes until the tyre slips around the rim, let the brakes go and airborne before the first RHAG, pure vertical climb until there is enough fuel to come back down
Does that mean that a ventralless F3 could sustain the vertical for much longer than an F6? Excuse my ignorance...
cheers
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How did the F-15 in the picture get shot with that solution?
Did the Lightning have bullets that pulled extra lead, 100g/100 foot min range Red Tops or Photon Torpedoes? Must have been the old 'Sid Hale snap shot', great blah for the debrief but all off the back of the flag.
I have a picture just like that through a Hawk T1 HUD of an F-16. I selected the best for my log book, didn't matter that he was out of range, sadly the next shot was taken over my shoulder with a 'Wish-ile'!
Ghost
Did the Lightning have bullets that pulled extra lead, 100g/100 foot min range Red Tops or Photon Torpedoes? Must have been the old 'Sid Hale snap shot', great blah for the debrief but all off the back of the flag.
I have a picture just like that through a Hawk T1 HUD of an F-16. I selected the best for my log book, didn't matter that he was out of range, sadly the next shot was taken over my shoulder with a 'Wish-ile'!
Ghost
Thread Starter
Well not all these shots are necessarily ACMI-valid, or there to make the QWI happy. But they certainly look good for the ordinary public like me...
In any case unless the Lightning spent all its Ps to make that shot, then I think that even if the Eagle is not already dead on this shot then it certainly is 2-3 seconds later.
I think you can even see that the burners are on, on this F15 but I'd bet it's too little too late.
In any case unless the Lightning spent all its Ps to make that shot, then I think that even if the Eagle is not already dead on this shot then it certainly is 2-3 seconds later.
I think you can even see that the burners are on, on this F15 but I'd bet it's too little too late.
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Not as highly technical and loads of lead and angle v energy fights as the last posts..but a rather warming dit on the old Frightning.
Took the incumbant PUS of Def to Warton a few years back as a VIP sortie for signing up ceremony for the Tornado ADV (as it was then).
After Champers and Cucumber sarnies, whilst walking across the apron to the aircraft for the trip back to London..a BAe Company F6 and 1st edition ADV (the ones with ballast in the nose), admittidly flown by Company Test Pilots (but both late ETPS and Air Defender types), came in low up the estuary from the Irish Sea (from the West for the unfamiliar)..at about 100ft (ish)..for a "break"..
By way of a "catch me if you can" ADV, the F6 lead put the beast in the vertical at mid point with full burner and went ballistic. Much to the amazement of the PUS, with fingers in his ears. The ADV lit the fires, wallowed down the runway for about 200m, computers working overtime on the elevons and the wing, juddered over 20 odd back gardens, dried out a host of Greenhouses and tried in vain to get anywhere near the F6.
The PUS looked glumly at the ADV, looked at me and said very sheepishly..." Bloody hell, tell me that it was the 1st aircraft I just signed up for"
Took the incumbant PUS of Def to Warton a few years back as a VIP sortie for signing up ceremony for the Tornado ADV (as it was then).
After Champers and Cucumber sarnies, whilst walking across the apron to the aircraft for the trip back to London..a BAe Company F6 and 1st edition ADV (the ones with ballast in the nose), admittidly flown by Company Test Pilots (but both late ETPS and Air Defender types), came in low up the estuary from the Irish Sea (from the West for the unfamiliar)..at about 100ft (ish)..for a "break"..
By way of a "catch me if you can" ADV, the F6 lead put the beast in the vertical at mid point with full burner and went ballistic. Much to the amazement of the PUS, with fingers in his ears. The ADV lit the fires, wallowed down the runway for about 200m, computers working overtime on the elevons and the wing, juddered over 20 odd back gardens, dried out a host of Greenhouses and tried in vain to get anywhere near the F6.
The PUS looked glumly at the ADV, looked at me and said very sheepishly..." Bloody hell, tell me that it was the 1st aircraft I just signed up for"
