Gnat Roll Rate and that fuse.

[18greens]

Thanks Beagle, very interesting. The systems sound so much more fun than the average a/c. You've changed my mind, it now makes me want to fly one. All I need are the required 6 numbers.

[Bof]

Beagle

You either have a hell of a memory or a loft full of manuals! I should imagine a bit of both! Thanks for an insight into the idiosyncrasies of a wonderful piece of UK aviation history.

The thing that surprises me is how they didn't lose more of them.
I mean apart from the instructors, you were all a tad on the inexperienced side going through Valley. Speaks well for their systems reliability, not to mention the TLC that they obviously received from the maintenance guys. Or maybe my memory is failing me and the accident rate was higher.

Nevertheless, a great little ship, and looked especially wonderful flown by the Reds. Your comment about not having flown one for 30 years reminded me of the time I looked round WM167, the ex Meteor NF11 at BOH, and droolingly remarked on how much I'd like to have a another 'go' after 33 years. Engineer chap in charge drily replied "That's why they wouldn't let you anywhere near it!!"

All very good sense but it p****d me off for a minute or two.

[BEagle]

No manuals - just the result of the excellent levels of instruction we used to have. Plus the drills for hydraulic failure had to be committed so firmly to memory that they became instinctive. Yes - we only had about 200 hrs on the Chipmunk and JP before going on to the Gnat; it used to have quite a high accident rate but by the time I did my course things were much better. Most people had the odd failure (AC/DC, oxygen, feel trim failure in my case) - but nothing really critical. We practised manual reversion constantly (dual!!) and it really did become second nature.

[fobotcso]

BEagle, you said "No manuals - just the result of the excellent levels of instruction we used to have".

That's nice, thank you. Although I musn't claim to to have been a waterfront QFI at that place, but I did my bit...

Serviceability was awful to start with. Maybe 15 or so on the line at first and down to low single figures by lunch time.

And the accident rate at the start was high for a variety of reasons.

After a couple of years, Eng Wg got its act together, the blanket stackers got a firm grip on the provision of spares before they were needed so that the cabs could be fixed promptly.

Standards and QFIs got a handle on training and the result was (with the addition of some Hunters) a training system that worked. But it was a training system that should never have existed in the first place. The Students' preoccupation in dealing with the Systems of an ac that they would never see the like of again was a quite unnecessary distraction from the business of learning Advanced Jet Flying.

But, like BEagle, I loved it and had no fear of it. You just had to know your drills....

[PPRuNe Towers]

Opened on request

Rob

[MACH2NUMBER]

Beagle,
I last flew the Gnat in 1973, it was probably my favourite jet for handling, even ahead of Lightning and F15. But it could certainly bite you quickly when things went wrong. I remember the STUPRECC drill for hydraulic emergencies, can't remember all of it but it started with Speed, Trim, Unlock, etc.
Happy days

[Haraka]

HP Folland himself was a fighter aircraft designer going back to such as the SE5, Grebe, Gauntlet, Gladiator etc. He resigned from his company in 1954.
Bill Petter ( ex - Westland) was then the main instigator of the Midge/Gnat ( after such as the Lysander, Whirlwind , Canberra and P.1)
Being of a religious persuasion he wanted the Midge blessed. As this wouldn't all fit in the church only the fuselage had water sprinkled over it. Probably the rear fuselage (hobson units etc.) was missed. Pity that.

[jim's brother]

Rob,

Many thanks for re-opening this 14-year-old thread, which I thought would be interesting to those posting in the current thread on the unfortunate Gnat accident at CarFest.

[Stu666]

Pardon my ignorance, but is this the 'Twinkle' manoeuvre that people refer to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZQBXuidAuk&t=10m10s



Seems a lot slower than the 1967 vintage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxf_9oliGg&t=7m22s

[jim's brother]

Originally Posted by Stu666

Pardon my ignorance, but is this the 'Twinkle' manoeuvre that people refer to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZQBXuidAuk&t=10m10s

Seems a lot slower than the 1967 vintage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxf_9oliGg&t=7m22s

The Gnat (1967) exhibited a very high rate of roll with full aileron applied, a manoeuvre nicknamed the "twinkle" roll. The Hawk (current) does not roll nearly as fast. Both are great fun to fly, though.

[Royalistflyer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxf_9oliGg&t=7m22s

[Wander00]

Frankly, I suspect anyone who has flown the Gnat has never had as much fun with their clothes on nor, on occasions been so f......g frightened! Night rollers at Mona, now there was an experience, also having my IRT examiner fly his Wright Jubilee sequence at Mona, base limit 200'

[jim's brother]

Wander00

Absolutely agree. That summer at Valley, flying that lovely little jet, was fantastic fun.

And... they paid us to do it!

[Fitter2]

fobotsco

When Lee Jones led the RAF Aerobatic Team they were painted yellow and called the "Yellow Jacks". They scared the pants off me - particularly at the World Gliding Championships at South Cerney in 1964. They "wired the joint" at 4-6ft in criss-cross and at that height they couldn't have seen all other ac because the airfield has a distinct upside-down saucer shape

Apologies for my being pedantic, but the South Cerney Worlds were in 1965, and my photos from there definitely show the RAFAT with red Gnats, in one of their first public displays. Also, South Cerney, and surrounding land, is as flat as a pancake. Possibly you are thinking of an earlier display at Middle Wallop (which does have a pronounced hump) ?

(Oops, sorry, that's the problem with resurrected threads)

[Geordie_Expat]

Originally Posted by Fitter2

fobotsco


Apologies for my being pedantic, but the South Cerney Worlds were in 1965, and my photos from there definitely show the RAFAT with red Gnats, in one of their first public displays. Also, South Cerney, and surrounding land, is as flat as a pancake. Possibly you are thinking of an earlier display at Middle Wallop (which does have a pronounced hump) ?

You do realise that post was from 14 years ago ?

[gzornenplatz]

Fuse 13

To get back to the original thread, the reason that The Reds flew with fuse 13 removed was that they flew clean wing, i.e. no slipper tanks. This reduced the risk of roll-coupling when they "twinkle" rolled. Incidentally, they also had the Mark 4 Hobson unit which reduced pitch sensitivity compared with the Mark 5 fitted to the Valley Gnats. I think the roll rate was something like 415 degrees /second with the fuse out.

[Wander00]

Heck, wish I had flown, especially the "formation" sorties, with a Mk 4 Hobson unit!

[thrusts a must]

Northwing. Very informative. One small point. The clearance was 1g, 1x360 and a MIN ias of 350 (ish) making the Gnat the only a/c I know with a min ias for app of full aileron. Wander 00. Trying to trace Bob, last seen in JNB in '99 can you help?


thrusts a must

[Wander00]

TAM - Bob Turner? I could ask Vic W if you like. Another ex Valley QFI of the period has an article in Aeroplane this month too

[airpolice]

I feel a photograph coming on.

In much the same way that we all eventually expect Beagle to produce a photo of a WRAF in susps, I think we are due a picture of a nearly inverted pocket rocket.