E-3
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E-3
I was watching Airbase on ITV last night which is all about RAF AWACS.
The captain of one of the E-3's commented that the E-3 has no countermeasures?
Surely, considering its importance the aircraft should be protected to the max? E.g Decoys. Flares, Chaff etc.
Then I thought isn't the E-3 an ideal platform for a BVR operations. It has a very long range radar, therefore why not strap a couple of long range missiles under its wings?
I know it would be stupid to replace fighters with E-3's for many reasons, and I'm not suggesting that they should. I hope to join the RAF after uni, so I wouldn't want to see that happen. But wouldn't it be a good idea?
The captain of one of the E-3's commented that the E-3 has no countermeasures?
Surely, considering its importance the aircraft should be protected to the max? E.g Decoys. Flares, Chaff etc.
Then I thought isn't the E-3 an ideal platform for a BVR operations. It has a very long range radar, therefore why not strap a couple of long range missiles under its wings?
I know it would be stupid to replace fighters with E-3's for many reasons, and I'm not suggesting that they should. I hope to join the RAF after uni, so I wouldn't want to see that happen. But wouldn't it be a good idea?
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Stonca,
Ah 'Airbase'...'never in the history of entertainment was so much filming done by so many for such a pants result!'
Yes we're important and yes we'd love to have self protection. Bear in mind however that the E-3D was procured in the Cold War as an AD platform. It was never envisaged that it would be employed in the roles it is now, and certainly not this close to the bad guys. Therefore it takes a while for funding and procurement to get around to giving us decent self protection systems. There are certainly more pressing priorities for the development of the E-3D right now. However, it's nice to see that both ASTOR and the MRA4 will have an excellent self defence suite.
Secondly, no it would definately not be a good idea to put BVR missiles on an E-3D!! Lets give our picture to the fighter jocks and let them take the shots. Unless somebody develops an AAM with a range of 100nm+, I do not wish to be going head to head with a kebab eating bad guy! In a perfect world, it would be nice to have a couple of AMRAAMs strapped under the wings (ala Nimrod/AIM-9) for last ditch self defence. But we do not live in a perfect world (in terms of funding) and again, there are MUCH better things that we could spend our dosh on!
Good luck at Uni and in joining the RAF.
Regards
M2
Ah 'Airbase'...'never in the history of entertainment was so much filming done by so many for such a pants result!'
Yes we're important and yes we'd love to have self protection. Bear in mind however that the E-3D was procured in the Cold War as an AD platform. It was never envisaged that it would be employed in the roles it is now, and certainly not this close to the bad guys. Therefore it takes a while for funding and procurement to get around to giving us decent self protection systems. There are certainly more pressing priorities for the development of the E-3D right now. However, it's nice to see that both ASTOR and the MRA4 will have an excellent self defence suite.
Secondly, no it would definately not be a good idea to put BVR missiles on an E-3D!! Lets give our picture to the fighter jocks and let them take the shots. Unless somebody develops an AAM with a range of 100nm+, I do not wish to be going head to head with a kebab eating bad guy! In a perfect world, it would be nice to have a couple of AMRAAMs strapped under the wings (ala Nimrod/AIM-9) for last ditch self defence. But we do not live in a perfect world (in terms of funding) and again, there are MUCH better things that we could spend our dosh on!
Good luck at Uni and in joining the RAF.
Regards
M2
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Couldn't you just borrow some of the USN's AIM-54?
[I presume they are still making those monsters for F-14?]
Gives you 50 miles there for a start
[Thinking gets wilder]
Could get an ole rotary launcher and be banging them off like a sixgun
Near unfriendly territory does a couple of fighters escort the AWACS anyway? Didn't see the show so don't know if it came up.
[I presume they are still making those monsters for F-14?]
Gives you 50 miles there for a start
[Thinking gets wilder]
Could get an ole rotary launcher and be banging them off like a sixgun
Near unfriendly territory does a couple of fighters escort the AWACS anyway? Didn't see the show so don't know if it came up.
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Mark
The mighty Phoenix is still in service on the F-14 but given the fact that that aircraft's days are numbered, I doubt if they're still making them. You'd also need to equip the E-3 with a fire control radar to initially illuminate the target for any radar guided missile like the AIM-54 or 120, even though they are active. Anyway, the Phoenix is of very little use against anything other than a big bomber sized target, and 50 miles is still not enough.
As far as fighters riding shotgun for us, we're now getting into the realm of tactics better not discussed on an open forum such as this. High Value Air Asset Defence (HVAAD) is taught and considered in depth at Waddington. Bear in mind that any fighter assets are almost certainly going to be controlled by the E-3. Therefore HVAAD of ourselves (and other HVAA such as SIGINT and JSTARS) will be VERY high on our agenda!
In reality, a well tactically directed and flown E-3 is not an easy target to take down.
Regards
M2
The mighty Phoenix is still in service on the F-14 but given the fact that that aircraft's days are numbered, I doubt if they're still making them. You'd also need to equip the E-3 with a fire control radar to initially illuminate the target for any radar guided missile like the AIM-54 or 120, even though they are active. Anyway, the Phoenix is of very little use against anything other than a big bomber sized target, and 50 miles is still not enough.
As far as fighters riding shotgun for us, we're now getting into the realm of tactics better not discussed on an open forum such as this. High Value Air Asset Defence (HVAAD) is taught and considered in depth at Waddington. Bear in mind that any fighter assets are almost certainly going to be controlled by the E-3. Therefore HVAAD of ourselves (and other HVAA such as SIGINT and JSTARS) will be VERY high on our agenda!
In reality, a well tactically directed and flown E-3 is not an easy target to take down.
Regards
M2
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Victors with winders?
Following on from asdfgh's remark, I have come across Martels being hung under a Victor, but never a Sidewinder. Was this a trial installation, or just one of those good ideas that never made it? I doubt any Victor crew ever fancied mixing it with Mirages, but there was always the chance of finding one of those nice 707's to have a pot at.
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Kebabs
Magic Mushroom
Not all the bad guys are eating Kebabs....steady on with the implications, as you very well know some of your "allies" at some of your current deployments eat Kebabs, I think you know where I mean.
Not all the bad guys are eating Kebabs....steady on with the implications, as you very well know some of your "allies" at some of your current deployments eat Kebabs, I think you know where I mean.
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Magic M
thanks for that explanation of the theory of Phoenix on Sentry, although I didn't really see it happening, if only because they are quite expensive toys
as for fighter escort, while I would never encourage classified matters to be discussed online, I would note that several of the technothriller style books - Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" coming immediately to mind IIRC - refer to AWACS being protected by fighter escort. Not Jane's admittedly, but there you go 
Incidentally - given that E-3D/E-8 is still essentially a 707, what price an Airbus 345/346 as a next generation Sentry/JSTARS? Loiter times would be pretty impressive I would think 
thanks for that explanation of the theory of Phoenix on Sentry, although I didn't really see it happening, if only because they are quite expensive toys
as for fighter escort, while I would never encourage classified matters to be discussed online, I would note that several of the technothriller style books - Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" coming immediately to mind IIRC - refer to AWACS being protected by fighter escort. Not Jane's admittedly, but there you go
Incidentally - given that E-3D/E-8 is still essentially a 707, what price an Airbus 345/346 as a next generation Sentry/JSTARS? Loiter times would be pretty impressive I would think
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F3SS,
You're are quite correct of course ref our current sunny det location! My implication was that most of our nominated bad guys happen to eat kebabs. In no way did I mean to suggest that we should launch TLAM strikes against every spotty 19 year old youth who happens partake of a kebab when he falls out of the local club at 2am on a Saturday! That would be kebabist!!!
Mark
You're right, the old 707 airframe is showing its age a tad. Although our E-3D's were all new build frames and are just over 10 years old, the technology is already causing problems with their upkeep. And all the JSTARS are VERY old ex airline jets. However, it doesn't really bother us about loiter. The E-3D/CFM-56 mix enables us to fly high enough and most certainly long enough over Afghanistan in our present op of choice!
However, the Spams are examining a 767 based Multi Role Command and Control Aircraft (MRC2A) that will replace E-3, E-8 and RC-135 variants. They are undecided as to whether it'll have all systems on one platform (to enable all roles to be done simultaneously), or to have reconfigurable sub variants of a basic type. Personally, I'll be very surprised if they go for the former as the different roles have differnt orbit requirements. Whatever they get will also be heavily augmented by the Global Hawk or similar UAVs.
Regards
M2
You're are quite correct of course ref our current sunny det location! My implication was that most of our nominated bad guys happen to eat kebabs. In no way did I mean to suggest that we should launch TLAM strikes against every spotty 19 year old youth who happens partake of a kebab when he falls out of the local club at 2am on a Saturday! That would be kebabist!!!
Mark
You're right, the old 707 airframe is showing its age a tad. Although our E-3D's were all new build frames and are just over 10 years old, the technology is already causing problems with their upkeep. And all the JSTARS are VERY old ex airline jets. However, it doesn't really bother us about loiter. The E-3D/CFM-56 mix enables us to fly high enough and most certainly long enough over Afghanistan in our present op of choice!
However, the Spams are examining a 767 based Multi Role Command and Control Aircraft (MRC2A) that will replace E-3, E-8 and RC-135 variants. They are undecided as to whether it'll have all systems on one platform (to enable all roles to be done simultaneously), or to have reconfigurable sub variants of a basic type. Personally, I'll be very surprised if they go for the former as the different roles have differnt orbit requirements. Whatever they get will also be heavily augmented by the Global Hawk or similar UAVs.
Regards
M2
Last edited by Magic Mushroom; 9th Nov 2002 at 09:54.
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Around the Clock....
Magic Mushy
Love your work mate. I am speaking to your lads each day on their way "up the road" from our "southern" sandy regions. They are in for the duration it seems, they are more regular than our public transport that is for sure.
Love your work mate. I am speaking to your lads each day on their way "up the road" from our "southern" sandy regions. They are in for the duration it seems, they are more regular than our public transport that is for sure.
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123.95
Hi Fox3. If you are who I think you are then:1) You have been to Japan.
2) You have an antipodean accent.
3) You know the above number.
Thanx for the service. Any chance of passing a OOTH Wx report?
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has he?
Hey pipl...
1. I didn't think he had been to Japan?
2. yep
3. lots of numbers make sense to us!!
The guy with the American accent is the one from Japan (even though he claims to be a Kiwi
)
There are a few of us with real antipodean accents...
I'll give you the TMR weather if I can give you the cricket scores as well!!
cheers all, anything you guys want, just ask, we'll see what we can do!
1. I didn't think he had been to Japan?
2. yep
3. lots of numbers make sense to us!!
The guy with the American accent is the one from Japan (even though he claims to be a Kiwi
)There are a few of us with real antipodean accents...
I'll give you the TMR weather if I can give you the cricket scores as well!!
cheers all, anything you guys want, just ask, we'll see what we can do!
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Yo Piniped,
Let me answer for myself......thank you for saving me the typing though!
Cheers pipl, as for OOTH wx, for this time of the year cool, dry and dusty with the occassional chance that it will be hot, dry and dusty in the summer months.
Have they got you guys out of tents yet?
Cheers and Beers
F3SS
Let me answer for myself......thank you for saving me the typing though!
Cheers pipl, as for OOTH wx, for this time of the year cool, dry and dusty with the occassional chance that it will be hot, dry and dusty in the summer months.
Have they got you guys out of tents yet?
Cheers and Beers
F3SS
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ah the e3 such a reliable aeroplane! on all the tlt and cqwi dets we had when i was at leuchars the e3s never went more than 2 days before going us. usually they had to get spares flown in, mind you one of them did once taxi in to a hangar! this was one of the gk ones, the pilot claimed he didnt know what it meant when the marshaller crossed his hands.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Was that the det where the first jet bent a wing tip? So they flew in a replacement, and when they opened the door on that, the escape chute activated. And when then flew in spares for that, in the aircrew trainer, some wag asked if they'd lost their radar on the way?
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Awwww Shucks...
Piniped
Geez mate, make me feel bad....apology accepted!
How 'bout you tell everyone what a piniped is...or was I the only one that didn't know....??????
Pipl......if you want higher coming home we can give it most of the time, just going out you hit all the civvy ice cream lickers on their way to Maldives and Seychelles so wouldn't be the best holiday for them...as Piniped said anything you want just ask, and we will of course expect return in kind....a tour of your part of the sand pit perhaps?
Enjoy!
Geez mate, make me feel bad....apology accepted!
How 'bout you tell everyone what a piniped is...or was I the only one that didn't know....??????
Pipl......if you want higher coming home we can give it most of the time, just going out you hit all the civvy ice cream lickers on their way to Maldives and Seychelles so wouldn't be the best holiday for them...as Piniped said anything you want just ask, and we will of course expect return in kind....a tour of your part of the sand pit perhaps?
Enjoy!
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Canberra,
Yes the E-3D is a very reliable ac actually. In 14 months of ops over Afganistan, it has met 97% of its tasking, a figure reflected in previous ops over BH and Kosovo.
Your experience of the jet at CQWI etc is merely a result of the fact that we've on average probably been employed at 120% of our allocated rate since the ac entered service in 91. Right now, we're flying at 160% of our allocation and this figure has sometimes approached 180% during other periods. Naturally however, the treasury beancounters do not allow for any increase in spares allocation.
Clearly then, the priorities lie with ops and small scale exercises such as CQWI and TLT are relatively low down on ac allocation. In fact, you're lucky that you got a jet allocated at all, let alone co-located!
We'd all love to deploy to leuchars to join in CQWI etc as they do offer fairly good trg value. But we only have so many jets/spares and crews!
Regards
M2
Yes the E-3D is a very reliable ac actually. In 14 months of ops over Afganistan, it has met 97% of its tasking, a figure reflected in previous ops over BH and Kosovo.
Your experience of the jet at CQWI etc is merely a result of the fact that we've on average probably been employed at 120% of our allocated rate since the ac entered service in 91. Right now, we're flying at 160% of our allocation and this figure has sometimes approached 180% during other periods. Naturally however, the treasury beancounters do not allow for any increase in spares allocation.
Clearly then, the priorities lie with ops and small scale exercises such as CQWI and TLT are relatively low down on ac allocation. In fact, you're lucky that you got a jet allocated at all, let alone co-located!
We'd all love to deploy to leuchars to join in CQWI etc as they do offer fairly good trg value. But we only have so many jets/spares and crews!
Regards
M2
