IOT for Airmen Aircrew.....
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IOT for Airmen Aircrew.....
As I have finally succumbed to the old adage of "if you can't beat them, join them" and am looking to take a commission in my Airmen Aircrew branch (NOT Ops support......!!!), can anyone explain why we still have to go through the full 6 months IOT (9 months soon...??) at Cranwell. Despite completing AAITC, AIC, AACMTC pts 1 & 2 and other specialist courses, the powers above still decree that we have to do full IOT and not the more tailored SERE course that I feel would be far more benificial to myself, and others in a similiar position. This isn't a whinge, just an honest question as I am led to believe that two NCO Army helicopter pilots transferring to the RAF recently only had to do the SERE course.
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I would imagine that the 2 AAC SNCOs qualified for Late Entry Commissions, and that you possibly don't meet the criteria because of either age or length of service. The other thing to remember is that a number of AAC SNCOs started life in another cap-badge and that it isn't remarkably uncommon to meet a Sgt pilot who has already done Senior Brecon or an equivalent non-inf cadre. This type of experience would count for a lot when considering a LE commission that might not be gained as Airman Aircrew, which while grounding you on the professional aspects of the job might not tick all of the boxes in the RAF's criteria. A lot will probably also depend on the demand for officer's in your branch. If the RAF has a shortage of rotary pilots, AAC SNCOs will find it a lot easier to make the jump to RAF Officer than perhaps an RAF SNCO in a well recruited branch.
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sere
the only way you can get out of doing the full iot if your comissioned from the ranks is to be a warrant officer and apply for the comissioned warrant officer stream, at least thats what i think its called. id be very suprised if sncos from another service would be comissioned without doing the full iot, after all just because your a good nco doesnt mean you'll make a good comissioned officer!
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At the end of the day it isn't that hard....!
However, you have to keep your head down. There are a number of blunt Flt Cmdrs who take great pleasure in giving AA a hard time.
With regards to content, there is benefit in doing the full course. Knowledge of Mil studies, DW and various other areas is expanded.
Tips- Head down & Grey Man spring to mind!!!!
However, you have to keep your head down. There are a number of blunt Flt Cmdrs who take great pleasure in giving AA a hard time.
With regards to content, there is benefit in doing the full course. Knowledge of Mil studies, DW and various other areas is expanded.
Tips- Head down & Grey Man spring to mind!!!!
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One option would be to remuster to Padre, then do the short course. Once commissioned, become an atheist and become a Loadmaster via the 'back door'. I think one of the reasons behind you doing the whole course is to help the new guys get through it, should be down to the Flight Commanders though. Shouting Radalt, you seem well informed on the subject!!
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Canberra wittled:
id be very suprised if sncos from another service would be comissioned without doing the full iot, after all just .......
Believe it, for it has happened. A been there, seen it done it AAC QHI for one is now quite happily getting lagered up in the Odiham O Mess. Was a good guy, wonder if he still is?
Believe it, for it has happened. A been there, seen it done it AAC QHI for one is now quite happily getting lagered up in the Odiham O Mess. Was a good guy, wonder if he still is?
Commissioned into RAF from army SNCO service. Full iot course. Complete waste of time apart from learning how to tie a bow tie. (SNCO's allowed elastic ones!)
Main reason for ex-rankers on course was to help the permanent staff teach the youngsters how to iron etc.
The first 6 week 'sense of humour test' was particularly familiar.
The whole course confirmed to me that, in any service, "bull**** baffles brains".
Main reason for ex-rankers on course was to help the permanent staff teach the youngsters how to iron etc.
The first 6 week 'sense of humour test' was particularly familiar.
The whole course confirmed to me that, in any service, "bull**** baffles brains".
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Shouting
Dont make me laugh - Mil studies, DW!
Most junior officers can just about get away with spelling their own names, let alone pen a well written letter. Most AA will have either done the AACMT pt 1 and/or 2 which gives them a far better understanding of DW, and in my experience the SNCOs do far more admin type stuff than your average junior O anyway.
Getting back to the thread of the topic, that leaves Mil studies. Hmm lets see, by Mil studies what exactly do you study at IOT that you cant pick up from a good book from a good book shop (and a few bad ones no doubt)
Im not trying to down-play the IOT thing, but lets get real, it is a commonly held beleif that AA training is far harder than IOT anyway, a fact born out by the vast majority of AA that are tempted to the dark side!
Dont make me laugh - Mil studies, DW!
Most junior officers can just about get away with spelling their own names, let alone pen a well written letter. Most AA will have either done the AACMT pt 1 and/or 2 which gives them a far better understanding of DW, and in my experience the SNCOs do far more admin type stuff than your average junior O anyway.
Getting back to the thread of the topic, that leaves Mil studies. Hmm lets see, by Mil studies what exactly do you study at IOT that you cant pick up from a good book from a good book shop (and a few bad ones no doubt)
Im not trying to down-play the IOT thing, but lets get real, it is a commonly held beleif that AA training is far harder than IOT anyway, a fact born out by the vast majority of AA that are tempted to the dark side!
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For the sharp eyed amongst you I have had to re-register as Darkside2...computer didn't like the last name and wouldn't let me re-log on...or was it senior Officers blocking me...JUST JOKING!!
Thanks for the comments and I do seem to have a firm ally in 1st Threshold! In my AAITC days we seemed to have an abundance of failed Officer cadets remustering to Airmen Aircrew who unanimously agreed that our training WAS harder than IOT. I'm not saying that still is the case but I find it disappointing that my 16 years of AA service seems to count for nothing. God forbid I get to Master rank and go to Cranwell to learn how to left, right and polish my shoes, but being 38 will still be 6 years short of doing the short Commissioned Warrant Officers course! I can understand the need to have some assistance for the young and inexperienced recruits, but surely there are enough ex-rankers who have NOT completed the same courses I have that can help the new ones adjust to military life. All AA HAVE completed OASC, HAVE done field leadership in the Dales and Otterburn and for those having completed AACMTC the reading and writing stuff as well!! There ARE undoubtably parts of IOT that are invaluable, but are these parts not included in the SERE course to introduce our Doctors and Nurses, Chaplains and so on the necessary skills to be an Officer in the RAF?? If so, would that not be a more appropriate course for AA going for a commission?? Not only that, but you would also have a professional aviator EARNING his flying pay in a flying job sooner!!
I look forward to some more comments........
Thanks for the comments and I do seem to have a firm ally in 1st Threshold! In my AAITC days we seemed to have an abundance of failed Officer cadets remustering to Airmen Aircrew who unanimously agreed that our training WAS harder than IOT. I'm not saying that still is the case but I find it disappointing that my 16 years of AA service seems to count for nothing. God forbid I get to Master rank and go to Cranwell to learn how to left, right and polish my shoes, but being 38 will still be 6 years short of doing the short Commissioned Warrant Officers course! I can understand the need to have some assistance for the young and inexperienced recruits, but surely there are enough ex-rankers who have NOT completed the same courses I have that can help the new ones adjust to military life. All AA HAVE completed OASC, HAVE done field leadership in the Dales and Otterburn and for those having completed AACMTC the reading and writing stuff as well!! There ARE undoubtably parts of IOT that are invaluable, but are these parts not included in the SERE course to introduce our Doctors and Nurses, Chaplains and so on the necessary skills to be an Officer in the RAF?? If so, would that not be a more appropriate course for AA going for a commission?? Not only that, but you would also have a professional aviator EARNING his flying pay in a flying job sooner!!
I look forward to some more comments........
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For many years the RAF managed to do without GOPWOs (Grossly Overpaid Warrant Officers), unfortunately we have had to succumb now. The reason we held on so long was that everyone who was a member of the Mess had done/survived the same course, therefore had equal standing; ........unlike the brown jobs! It may be the case that SNCOs of any service have covered much of the teaching before, but if you want to be accepted then take the advice given, keep your head down and survive. (Assuming you can and you are not having doubts about your ability!!!!! or truly have a darkside you are trying to hide???); after all you are still being paid. The RAF knows that they are paying you more than an 18 year old Officer Cadet so that you will be part of the 'in-house' training machine.
I have to admit that most AA who get commissioned are good officers, and some are climbing the ladder very fast, is this because of the fact that they are not treated as second class citizens like the commissioned WOs that the Army produce??????
I have to admit that most AA who get commissioned are good officers,
and some are climbing the ladder very fast, is this because of the fact that they are not treated as second class citizens like the commissioned WOs that the Army produce??????
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T-hold,
If there were so many failed Officer Cadets around on AITC who thought it was so difficult, please explain why they managed to pass out as Sgts and not JOs?
Also please explain the number of Airman Aircrew who applied to OASC as Pilot/Nav and ended up as AAcrew?
The simple fact is that the recruting office will hand out the forms to everyone. You choose the branch and apply iaw with all of the conditions ant terms of service .
If you really want to be an Officer then do the course.
If there were so many failed Officer Cadets around on AITC who thought it was so difficult, please explain why they managed to pass out as Sgts and not JOs?
Also please explain the number of Airman Aircrew who applied to OASC as Pilot/Nav and ended up as AAcrew?
The simple fact is that the recruting office will hand out the forms to everyone. You choose the branch and apply iaw with all of the conditions ant terms of service .
If you really want to be an Officer then do the course.
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PMSL
"Most of the AA commissioned are good one's"
Not in my branch matey , in fact we have so many tossers that the desk officer is reluctant to sign them on past 38 yr point and most of them are in dead end jobs ie FLT Cmdr etc etc
Spot4 .. yes he still is a very good egg, one of the most respected QHI's I've ever worked with ...
Dark side , if you can't beat them join them , go learn how to be a leader of men .. and then come back and tell some of the officers i work with how it's done will you.
On a serious note though , I have no probs that SNCO AA have to go through the sausage factory at Cranners , after all you must learn something new surely! Def studies serv writing spelling etc
If only how to act responsibly at the mess and set fire to piano's.
"Most of the AA commissioned are good one's"
Not in my branch matey , in fact we have so many tossers that the desk officer is reluctant to sign them on past 38 yr point and most of them are in dead end jobs ie FLT Cmdr etc etc
Spot4 .. yes he still is a very good egg, one of the most respected QHI's I've ever worked with ...
Dark side , if you can't beat them join them , go learn how to be a leader of men .. and then come back and tell some of the officers i work with how it's done will you.
On a serious note though , I have no probs that SNCO AA have to go through the sausage factory at Cranners , after all you must learn something new surely! Def studies serv writing spelling etc
If only how to act responsibly at the mess and set fire to piano's.
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Fishy
If you re-read my post you will actually find that I didnt say that. Actually I said the opposite in that AA who have gone for Officer selection have found IOT a stroll in the park in comparison to ITC.
Dont get me started on the recruiting centers, as many of those that work in these places have little or no idea what an AEOp (sorry WSOp) does; ALM - the glamour boys who rescue people, and Air Eng (sadly reducing in numbers) do some engineering type stuff probably in the air!
This is not me just making this up, it is a fact born out by an ex Adj of one the maritime Sqns who went to work in a CIO. He was the only one there who had any idea what AA did/do.
Because of this, then they will as you state just hand out forms (most likely to meet quota in todays corporate run armed forces). Whilst this is not ment to slate those that work in the recruiting offices, they can only pass on what theyve been told, which for AA is precious little.
If you re-read my post you will actually find that I didnt say that. Actually I said the opposite in that AA who have gone for Officer selection have found IOT a stroll in the park in comparison to ITC.
Dont get me started on the recruiting centers, as many of those that work in these places have little or no idea what an AEOp (sorry WSOp) does; ALM - the glamour boys who rescue people, and Air Eng (sadly reducing in numbers) do some engineering type stuff probably in the air!
This is not me just making this up, it is a fact born out by an ex Adj of one the maritime Sqns who went to work in a CIO. He was the only one there who had any idea what AA did/do.
Because of this, then they will as you state just hand out forms (most likely to meet quota in todays corporate run armed forces). Whilst this is not ment to slate those that work in the recruiting offices, they can only pass on what theyve been told, which for AA is precious little.
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Fishy,
Good point about the failed Officer cadets passing AAITC..perhaps I should have mentioned that few I knew in those days passed, most PVR'd before the Dales. The ones that did pass mentioned that when they had been chopped at Cranwell had gladly and gratefully accepted any Airmen Aircrew branch and in a sort of way been told which branch they were going in.....was this a numbers game I wonder...!!
I am not interested in whether Airmen Aircrew turn into good officers or not, that was not my question. Every rank from the top to the bottom has it's share of good/bad guys. I was purely asking if we should attend the full IOT, or the reduced SERE course in recognition of the training we have done in the past.
Thanks for all the replies, please feel free to continue this debate and add your comments constructively!!!
By the way, was chatting to our Co-pilot today who knows that a corporal AAC chap was only required to do the 2 month course when he crossed over. Guess the Air Force still doesn't know how to look after it's own and pay them the dues and recognition it should.......!
Fly safe everyone and catch you in the bar sometime! Don't forget that it's high jinks in the O's Mess....and wanton destruction in ours!!!
Good point about the failed Officer cadets passing AAITC..perhaps I should have mentioned that few I knew in those days passed, most PVR'd before the Dales. The ones that did pass mentioned that when they had been chopped at Cranwell had gladly and gratefully accepted any Airmen Aircrew branch and in a sort of way been told which branch they were going in.....was this a numbers game I wonder...!!
I am not interested in whether Airmen Aircrew turn into good officers or not, that was not my question. Every rank from the top to the bottom has it's share of good/bad guys. I was purely asking if we should attend the full IOT, or the reduced SERE course in recognition of the training we have done in the past.
Thanks for all the replies, please feel free to continue this debate and add your comments constructively!!!
By the way, was chatting to our Co-pilot today who knows that a corporal AAC chap was only required to do the 2 month course when he crossed over. Guess the Air Force still doesn't know how to look after it's own and pay them the dues and recognition it should.......!
Fly safe everyone and catch you in the bar sometime! Don't forget that it's high jinks in the O's Mess....and wanton destruction in ours!!!
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I finished IOT 5 months ago and got very little from the course............DW refresher? 17 yrs in RAF, most as AA, last 5 as FS, all they taught me was how to be a Cadet. Most stuff is learn and dump and 90% has been covered before................however, head down and grey, it's worth it for the cash.
Good Luck
Good Luck
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Interesting last comment from someone who has been on both sides of the fence.....of course I am biased as he seems to speak my language though!!
That is a good turn of phrase "this day and age" as I feel that some of the dinosaurs just do not want to move with the times.
If flexibility is the key to air power.....then why not apply it to the guys that actually do "get in the air" to do their job!
Happy bar room frolics.........
That is a good turn of phrase "this day and age" as I feel that some of the dinosaurs just do not want to move with the times.
If flexibility is the key to air power.....then why not apply it to the guys that actually do "get in the air" to do their job!
Happy bar room frolics.........
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IOT for Airmen Aircrew
Did Swinderby in 68, AAITC in 70 and Henlow in 84 (Poor man's IOT). All 3 were the best heavy drinking courses I've ever done and all for free!
Did I learn anything - no, but I sure as hell taught the impressionable youth a lot, and it wasn't how to bull their shoes. Thanks to myself and the other hairies we converted the fresh-faced youngsters into cynical, alcoholic hooligans and really wound up the blunty DS doing it.
Seriously, many of the youngsters with you will have little knowledge of the RAF other than that told to them by the AFCOs, so sit back, stay grey in the classroom and give your peers the benefit of your considerable experience. They will learn something even if you don't.
Did I learn anything - no, but I sure as hell taught the impressionable youth a lot, and it wasn't how to bull their shoes. Thanks to myself and the other hairies we converted the fresh-faced youngsters into cynical, alcoholic hooligans and really wound up the blunty DS doing it.
Seriously, many of the youngsters with you will have little knowledge of the RAF other than that told to them by the AFCOs, so sit back, stay grey in the classroom and give your peers the benefit of your considerable experience. They will learn something even if you don't.
Last edited by consumptive whippet; 11th Oct 2002 at 14:46.
Best bit about IOT (apart from learning how to tie that bow tie) was to be paid both as RAF Fg Off AND Army Sgt for 4 months!! (Commissioned into RAF on arrival day at IOT. Left Army on Graduation day.)
I told them but no one was interested! (Don't worry, I paid it all back!)
I told them but no one was interested! (Don't worry, I paid it all back!)
1st T. All in one go! What's more, as the system didn't recognise me as ex-snco(it was that degree, you see...) my officers pay was less than the sgts pay I gave back!
(normally ex rankers get their previous pay +5% on commissioning until their officers rate catches up)
Anyone else out there held grunt and rupert rank simultaneously?
(normally ex rankers get their previous pay +5% on commissioning until their officers rate catches up)
Anyone else out there held grunt and rupert rank simultaneously?