Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

NATO vs Russia

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 26th Feb 2024, 16:48
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 1,333
Received 104 Likes on 51 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Presumably you’re worried about a treaty that may not exist or of its scope of it does when Russia doesn’t worry about such.
Currently Russia is still sticking to the numbers in NewSTART but has suspended it. It is wary of UK and France not being counted in that treaty currently. Lately the US was concerned that Russia might retreat entirely from NewSTART forcing them back into an Arms race regarding Nukes (which does not help against China but costs precious resources). Taking this into consideration I'm not so sure if the US is currently keen on a massive Nuclear Up- arming of Europe. But from a European perspective I see little choices. This will have to happen if we don't want to become suspetable to blackmailing.

henra is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2024, 17:37
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by t43562
You're making my point for me with Brexit. I'm sure it delighted our enemies. Defence is irrelevant if you don't need to take over at all to get people to do what you want?
We’re at differing steps on Maslow's Hierarchy. You must have the lower tiers satisfied first.
West Coast is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2024, 18:20
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,224
Received 409 Likes on 255 Posts
Originally Posted by henra
Currently Russia is still sticking to the numbers in NewSTART but has suspended it. It is wary of UK and France not being counted in that treaty currently. Lately the US was concerned that Russia might retreat entirely from NewSTART forcing them back into an Arms race regarding Nukes (which does not help against China but costs precious resources). Taking this into consideration I'm not so sure if the US is currently keen on a massive Nuclear Up- arming of Europe. But from a European perspective I see little choices. This will have to happen if we don't want to become suspetable to blackmailing.
Indeed, an unfortunate problem. Remember the sigh of relief and the enthusiasm after the Wall fell and the hope for a better future was everywhere?
I remember, and it's a great disappointment that this is where things stand now.
As to NATO members bickering with NATO members**: heck, it was normal every day at the office when I was in a NATO billet - except - at the time everyone took Article V guarantees as a given. (And that right there is why those former bloc nations wanted in ...)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
** The Greek-Turk friction wasn't the only example, but it certainly was reliable.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 26th Feb 2024 at 21:01.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 26th Feb 2024, 19:08
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 72
Received 6 Likes on 2 Posts
Apologies for intruding, but both can be true. It is absolutely correct that Europe has not pulled its weight and has been happy to sit under the umbrella of the US for too long.

However, this is appears to be a key point in global geopolitics, and making these threats is seriously damaging and may have existential repercussions for years to come.

This is what Russia wants, to divide allies; and even on the medium of a sensible discussion board it is manifesting itself.

We’ve had a big wake-up call, hopefully not too late, but a unified West is the only thing that will stop Putin.

Back to lurking, thanks to all who have served.
L4key is offline  
The following 5 users liked this post by L4key:
Old 26th Feb 2024, 20:58
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,224
Received 409 Likes on 255 Posts
Originally Posted by L4key
This is what Russia wants, to divide allies; and even on the medium of a sensible discussion board it is manifesting itself.
Yes, Putin wants that. He bided his time and struck when he thought that conditions favored his big gamble.
Since his military team wasn't able to achieve that 'quick victory' (how many times has that "it will be a short war" fantasy been dispelled..."home by Christmas" in Korea comes to mind) he's going to try whatever he can to force, and exploit, any cracks in the alliance that he sees looking west. (See Hungary and others who have been somewhat obstructionist).
But he's also ended up adding two important countries to NATO in the North: Finland and Sweden.
NATO versus Russia looks quite a bit different if those two are both on side, as compared to the previous situation.
However, this is appears to be a key point in global geopolitics, and making these threats is seriously damaging and may have existential repercussions for years to come.
Indeed. Not well played by he-who-shall-not-be-named-to-avoid-getting-this-moved-to-JB.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 27th Feb 2024, 04:24
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Macron hinting that Western forces may be heading to Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/paris-con...8cdeb84050d469
West Coast is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 04:31
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,132
Received 173 Likes on 89 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Macron hinting that Western forces may be heading to Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/paris-con...8cdeb84050d469
No, he's just maintaining some strategic ambiguity by not taking them off the table.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 04:50
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
No, he's just maintaining some strategic ambiguity by not taking them off the table.
Semantics. If there’s French boots on the ground in Ukraine, this war is going to get warmer.
West Coast is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 11:24
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,035
Received 2,903 Likes on 1,244 Posts
China thinks Kalingrad could be at risk.

​​​​​​​

NutLoose is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 11:28
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,075
Received 66 Likes on 40 Posts
What a strange narrative. Is this on Russia's request? Russia based new nuke missiles at Kaliningrad only recently.
Less Hair is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 11:35
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,035
Received 2,903 Likes on 1,244 Posts
​​​​​​​
NutLoose is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 13:18
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,224
Received 409 Likes on 255 Posts
Sinister convoy of Russian mobile missile launchers on 250-mile journey to Moscow (msn.com)
Video footage showed the hulking dark green Yars missile launchers being wheeled 250 miles to the capital more than two months ahead of the country’s Victory Day parade in Red Square.
Capable of flying 17,500 miles per hour, 25 times the speed of sound, these mobile intercontinental ballistic missiles are a frequent feature of Russia’s annual celebration of its victory over Nazi Germany in the Second World War. The convoy clad in Russian flags is just the latest flaunting of Russia’s nuclear arsenal as 71-year-old Vladimir Putin seeks to taunt the West amidst the military gridlock two years on from Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

Just a day earlier, Putin flew in the pilot’s seat of a Tu-160M strategic bomber, a key component of Russia’s nuclear triad.

Yars missiles are currently the core of the ground-based component of Russia’s strategic nuclear force. They have a range of up to 7,500 miles, enables strikes on countries like the UK and USA, a realistic threat if the words of Putin lapdog Dmitry Medvedev are anything to go by.

He warned: ‘Sad as it may sound, this [nuclear war] scenario is real. We must do everything we can to prevent it from happening. But this very clock, which is ticking in a certain direction, has now accelerated very much. ‘And in this I also see the inability, excuse me, the impotence of these Western authorities. ‘[They] keep saying the same thing: ‘No, it’s the Russians who are scaring us, they will never do it’. They’re wrong.

‘If it comes to the existence of our country, and I said this recently, what choice is left for the [Russian] leadership, for the head of state? None.’
He said: ‘So this is, unfortunately, a real threat, a direct and clear threat to all of humanity. ‘And secondly, there are also accidents, from which no one is immune.
‘And the accidental, unintentional start of a nuclear conflict cannot be discounted.
Gee, thanks, Dimitry, your "We might just screw up and start a nuclear war" is just the kind of message that will bring people to your point of view. I guess vodka for breakfast brings its side effects.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 16:20
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,132
Received 173 Likes on 89 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Semantics. If there’s French boots on the ground in Ukraine, this war is going to get warmer.
Not semantics at all, maintaining strategic ambiguity by not ruling something out is absolutely NOT the same as saying you are going to do that thing.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 16:54
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,035
Received 2,903 Likes on 1,244 Posts
The European Union aims to purchase up to half of its military equipment from inside the Union by 2035, knock on effect due to the perceived unreliability of the USA in supplying arms?

That would make sense, if you now see the USA as a threat in a growing conflict by putting a squeeze on arms supplies for your weapons systems, then remove them as a supplier and build in house. I wonder how much they will reduce dependence post 2035.

NutLoose is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 17:35
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Off the map
Posts: 59
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Should I expect Russian troop ships to appear off the NY or California coast soon? Russia is a threat to euroland, not to the US.
........
.
Really? I thought it was a threat to the whole civilized world, not just us old European farts. Silly me.
DirtyProp is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 17:41
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
Not semantics at all, maintaining strategic ambiguity by not ruling something out is absolutely NOT the same as saying you are going to do that thing.
Can you point out where I said French troops would absolutely be headed to Ukraine? Below are my words, save you the effort of having to go look it up.

Macron hinting that Western forces may be heading to Ukraine.

West Coast is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 17:58
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,132
Received 173 Likes on 89 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Can you point out where I said French troops would absolutely be headed to Ukraine? Below are my words, save you the effort of having to go look it up.

Macron hinting that Western forces may be heading to Ukraine.
The 'may be heading' is where you overplayed his statement. I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 18:10
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
The 'may be heading' is where you overplayed his statement. I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
Wrong. Macron only gets traction and reaction from this threat if western troops may head there, ergo “may be heading there” is accurate.


West Coast is online now  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 18:13
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 2,132
Received 173 Likes on 89 Posts
Originally Posted by West Coast
Wrong. Macron only gets traction and reaction from this threat if western troops may head there, ergo “may be heading there” is accurate.
Not a threat, but strategic ambiguity. There is an important difference, but no matter.
melmothtw is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2024, 18:26
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,077
Received 55 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by melmothtw
Not a threat, but strategic ambiguity. There is an important difference, but no matter.
Saying western forces may end up in Ukraine is a threat to Russia, plain and simple. Doesn’t mean it will happen if that’s what you’re falling back on. Doesn’t mean it won’t which is my assertion.
West Coast is online now  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.