Gaza Air War
https://truthout.org/articles/israel...lt%20on%20Gaza.
The IDF aircraft have been pretty busy for the last couple of months.
BV
The IDF aircraft have been pretty busy for the last couple of months.
BV
For comparison the total number of bombs dropped from 7th October 1940 to 6th June 1941 on Greater Londonduring the blitz was around 28,500
London Blitz
Brought to mind the Bob Dylan lyric -
"Shut the eyes of the dead
Not to embarrass anyone"
ORAC, a tidbit from your article:
That's a 90% readiness rate, which is good. (well, something like 89.7 or so).
LaPlante said in written remarks that Israel has 35 of its 39 F-35s operating and carrying out missions, with the help of a surge in sustainment support to maximize the nation’s aircraft readiness.
If the number of dumb bombs being employed is true, must be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Thought there were smart weapons such as SDBs which could be use, or have they exhausted stocks of them?
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I don't think the Israelis care, their intent is to raze Gaza to the ground whether it be with Smart or Dumb bombs. And if 9 civilians are killed for each Hamas fighter, so be it..
Telling, is the very low number of Israeli combatants killed, some 120 only, including blue on blue. They are fighting a stand off war with largely indiscriminate destruction from afar..
Telling, is the very low number of Israeli combatants killed, some 120 only, including blue on blue. They are fighting a stand off war with largely indiscriminate destruction from afar..
Thread Starter
Aerial Bombardment
I am not about to divert my own thread with arguments about the rights and wrongs but just wanted to add some facts.
BBC Verify is reporting today that the IDF has so far dropped in excess of 29,000 bombs on Gaza. 40-45% of those are unguided. Those figures are verified by US sources.
The number of civilian dead is internationally acknowledged to be in excess of 20,000 now and likely to be considerably higher with many bodies buried under rubble and those not being brought to hospitals (such as they are) not counted amongst the figures.
I await todays UN vote with great interest.
BV
BBC Verify is reporting today that the IDF has so far dropped in excess of 29,000 bombs on Gaza. 40-45% of those are unguided. Those figures are verified by US sources.
The number of civilian dead is internationally acknowledged to be in excess of 20,000 now and likely to be considerably higher with many bodies buried under rubble and those not being brought to hospitals (such as they are) not counted amongst the figures.
I await todays UN vote with great interest.
BV
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CNN — Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment.
The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.
On Tuesday, President Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza.
Asked for comment on the assessment, IDF spokesperson Nir Dinar told CNN, “We do not address the type of munitions used.”
Full article here
The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.
On Tuesday, President Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza.
Asked for comment on the assessment, IDF spokesperson Nir Dinar told CNN, “We do not address the type of munitions used.”
Full article here
The IDF's strategy has always been to out crazy all off its opponents. They want all off Israel's enemies to understand that provoking Israel means unconditional all out warfare. If a 500 lb bomb will obliterate the target they will use a 2000 lb bomb. Surrounded by fanatical enemies who all want to kill every Jew this is perhaps not an unreasonable strategy. They don't have the luxury of nuance.....
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The Washington Post analyzed satellite imagery, airstrike data and U.N. damage assessments, and interviewed more than 20 aid workers, health-care providers, and experts in munitions and aerial warfare. The evidence shows that Israel has carried out its war in Gaza at a pace and level of devastation that likely exceeds any recent conflict, destroying more buildings, in far less time, than were destroyed during the Syrian regime’s battle for Aleppo from 2013 to 2016 and the U.S.-led campaign to defeat the Islamic State in Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria, in 2017.
The Post also found that the Israeli military has conducted repeated and widespread airstrikes in proximity to hospitals, which are supposed to receive special protection under the laws of war. Satellite imagery reviewed by Post reporters revealed dozens of apparent craters near 17 of the 28 hospitals in northern Gaza, where the bombing and fighting were most intense during the first two months of war, including 10 craters that suggested the use of bombs weighing 2,000 pounds, the largest in regular use.
“There’s no safe space. Period,” said Mirjana Spoljaric Egger, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, who visited Gaza on Dec. 4. “I haven’t passed one street where I didn’t see destruction of civilian infrastructure, including hospitals.”
Full article here
The Post also found that the Israeli military has conducted repeated and widespread airstrikes in proximity to hospitals, which are supposed to receive special protection under the laws of war. Satellite imagery reviewed by Post reporters revealed dozens of apparent craters near 17 of the 28 hospitals in northern Gaza, where the bombing and fighting were most intense during the first two months of war, including 10 craters that suggested the use of bombs weighing 2,000 pounds, the largest in regular use.
“There’s no safe space. Period,” said Mirjana Spoljaric Egger, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, who visited Gaza on Dec. 4. “I haven’t passed one street where I didn’t see destruction of civilian infrastructure, including hospitals.”
Full article here
The Post also found that the Israeli military has conducted repeated and widespread airstrikes in proximity to hospitals, which are supposed to receive special protection under the laws of war.
If Hamas is using the hospitals as a cover for its operations and/or infrastructure (and the evidence is there that it is), they are fair game under the laws of war.
Also, Merry Christmas.
Also, Merry Christmas.
Engines we have heard on high,
Could be drones or could be planes
Deliver Explosives (high)
Blow things up and bring new pains
Gloo ooria ..
Peace on Earth, Good Will toward men ... in short supply this year.
a Post-Truth World
Belief, truth, is where-ever we choose to look:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activ...ium=member_ios
The comment about war crimes (ICC) is interesting if compared with A.C. Grayling's book 'Amongst the Dead Cities', which concludes that both history and war crimes are written by the victors (WWII examples).
Is this still likely with modern air-warfare, remote weapons, a climate of alternative facts, instant worldwide media. (Consider the precedence and examples in the link - Sarajevo, Warsaw, Dresden).
If not, then perhaps worldly belief - alternative viewpoints, will shape the conduct of future warfare and choice of weapons; ' The Pen is Mightier Than the Sword ', i.e. the use of air power alone cannot not destroy a deeply held ideology and social media.
Thus the need is to win both the war and the peace.
How might air warfare win the peace, in Gaza, or anywhere else.
Also: 'A Short History of Truth: Consolations for a Post-Truth World' - Julian Baggini
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activ...ium=member_ios
The comment about war crimes (ICC) is interesting if compared with A.C. Grayling's book 'Amongst the Dead Cities', which concludes that both history and war crimes are written by the victors (WWII examples).
Is this still likely with modern air-warfare, remote weapons, a climate of alternative facts, instant worldwide media. (Consider the precedence and examples in the link - Sarajevo, Warsaw, Dresden).
If not, then perhaps worldly belief - alternative viewpoints, will shape the conduct of future warfare and choice of weapons; ' The Pen is Mightier Than the Sword ', i.e. the use of air power alone cannot not destroy a deeply held ideology and social media.
Thus the need is to win both the war and the peace.
How might air warfare win the peace, in Gaza, or anywhere else.
Also: 'A Short History of Truth: Consolations for a Post-Truth World' - Julian Baggini
Just reporting:
my extended family, gathered over Christmas, and all except my wife at least one generation younger [and graduate], plus seven [all graduate save one] two generations younger] believe that:
my extended family, gathered over Christmas, and all except my wife at least one generation younger [and graduate], plus seven [all graduate save one] two generations younger] believe that:
- Ukr v RUzz is not a matter for serious discussion or contemplation .......... scarcely matters as a backdrop to their pursuit of hedonism
- Israel is definitely in the wrong "even though [details are vague] HAMAS were a bit naughty".
I would theorise that, if this is pervasive, it's the result of Russia and Hamas socially engineering UK beliefs through propoganda.
I belive that subtle, repetitive, long-term propoganda is an effective way to shape or dilute a generation's "feeling" on a particular world affair or, more importantly, their view of themselves as it relates to the world affair. The goal could be to turn a population against an idea, but more realistically, to dilute their opinions and therefore willpower, benefitting the propagandist over time.
It needs to be targeted to those who are the influencers/decision makers of today and tomorrow, but are impressionable now - laymen and kids for example. AI can assist with this by shaping the propoganda to the individual - what you see on X at home will not be the same as your kid sees at school on X, or TikTok, and you will have no awareness of the disparity.
So we end up with diluted or distorted beliefs, compromising our will to stand against a terrorist, or support an ally. The propagandist wins.
Thread Starter
The Air War
I don’t wish to play at being a moderator, but I started this thread to discuss the Air War. If we stray from that it’ll get shut down just like the JB thread got shut down. If there’s nothing air related happening we can just stay quiet.
I’d love nothing more than to vent my spleen about the politics of the region but this isn’t the place. So please, stick to the air war or I’ll shut it down myself.
If the moderators feel that we can be trusted to discuss the wider issues again maybe a new JB thread can be opened but I suspect the polarised and often blinkered opinions will result in a rapid demise.
BV
I’d love nothing more than to vent my spleen about the politics of the region but this isn’t the place. So please, stick to the air war or I’ll shut it down myself.
If the moderators feel that we can be trusted to discuss the wider issues again maybe a new JB thread can be opened but I suspect the polarised and often blinkered opinions will result in a rapid demise.
BV
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What are the salient elements of this 'air war'?
Bob, # 445 noted.
However, the emerging discussion reflects the reality of modern Air War (and all that preceding).
War is not won by aircraft or bombs alone, if ever at all.
Air power is a vital contribution, rapidly evolving with greater capability, but it is the use and depiction of it which has the greater effect on modern world views.
In the complex and adaptive system of human activity, if discussion is restricted to 'Air' then the potentially powerful effects of interactions and changes are lost. This is important because the systemic connections and interactions, thence adaptions, probably have greater influence on outcome than any single view.
A difficulty with on-line discussion is in the inability to represent all contributions and interactions simultaneously; thus we are limited by linear thinking and writing, which isolates views within 'the big picture'.
Furthermore, the human dislike of the unknown, leads to speculation.
Other than by outcome we cannot understand the reasoning behind the use of air power; the choice or effectiveness of ISTAR, smart vs dumb bombs, coordination with ground forces, etc. These aspects could be discussed in isolation, but this might be no more than 'isolated speculation', which without sound reasoning is a form of self satisfaction - entertainment.
However, the emerging discussion reflects the reality of modern Air War (and all that preceding).
War is not won by aircraft or bombs alone, if ever at all.
Air power is a vital contribution, rapidly evolving with greater capability, but it is the use and depiction of it which has the greater effect on modern world views.
In the complex and adaptive system of human activity, if discussion is restricted to 'Air' then the potentially powerful effects of interactions and changes are lost. This is important because the systemic connections and interactions, thence adaptions, probably have greater influence on outcome than any single view.
A difficulty with on-line discussion is in the inability to represent all contributions and interactions simultaneously; thus we are limited by linear thinking and writing, which isolates views within 'the big picture'.
Furthermore, the human dislike of the unknown, leads to speculation.
Other than by outcome we cannot understand the reasoning behind the use of air power; the choice or effectiveness of ISTAR, smart vs dumb bombs, coordination with ground forces, etc. These aspects could be discussed in isolation, but this might be no more than 'isolated speculation', which without sound reasoning is a form of self satisfaction - entertainment.
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Each war is different. Our targeting philosophy was used in Afghanistan, and that ended in a crushing defeat. The cost of that defeat has been immense - especially to the Afghans.
The Israelis have openly noted our failures and they're determined not to repeat them.
When Hamas attacked Israel, they knew the Israeli retaliation would be impossible to do cleanly, perhaps they thought Israel would follow our lead in a futile attempt to separate combatants from innocents? Not possible in an area that small, with enemy dug-in and interchangeable with the population.
The Israelis have openly noted our failures and they're determined not to repeat them.
When Hamas attacked Israel, they knew the Israeli retaliation would be impossible to do cleanly, perhaps they thought Israel would follow our lead in a futile attempt to separate combatants from innocents? Not possible in an area that small, with enemy dug-in and interchangeable with the population.
Administrator
You are all aware of why the JB thread was closed.
Don't start doing that.
Don't start doing that.
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I am not about to divert my own thread with arguments about the rights and wrongs but just wanted to add some facts.
BBC Verify is reporting today that the IDF has so far dropped in excess of 29,000 bombs on Gaza. 40-45% of those are unguided. Those figures are verified by US sources.
The number of civilian dead is internationally acknowledged to be in excess of 20,000 now and likely to be considerably higher with many bodies buried under rubble and those not being brought to hospitals (such as they are) not counted amongst the figures.
BBC Verify is reporting today that the IDF has so far dropped in excess of 29,000 bombs on Gaza. 40-45% of those are unguided. Those figures are verified by US sources.
The number of civilian dead is internationally acknowledged to be in excess of 20,000 now and likely to be considerably higher with many bodies buried under rubble and those not being brought to hospitals (such as they are) not counted amongst the figures.
Bob if you want to get this thread shut down, you have laid the foundation. How about we all not do what was done in JB.
What is going on there - particularly the difficulty as regards air ops over Urban Terrain - is of interest to professional military aviators.
Instead of being heroes by default, as in the Battle of Britain, in the Information Age the pilot is as often as not cast as the villain.
Julian Assange, among others, tells the story that way.
Are you going to jump on that bandwagon?
You are a pilot. This sub forum is for Military Aviators. Pooping in your own dinner plate is a bad move.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 30th Dec 2023 at 14:37.