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Gaza Air War

Old 21st Nov 2023, 14:42
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Perfect example of FAFO concept.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 15:12
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
Not strictly aviation but may be resonant with today's news:

My Military Law/ Geneva Convention detailed knowledge stops at 1918, the year when my library and interests stop.

However, changes since then seem superficial, and in those days having or bearing arms in a hospital [even temporary sanctuary such as a Nunnery] rendered the culprits fair game for summary execution, rather than regarded as surrendering, and thus P o W.

Not that Palestine is officially a war.
The British were not officially at war with Argentina in 1982, but after the Argentine hospital ship ARA Almirante Irizar used its searchlights to illuminate a British raiding party the government in London made it very clear to Buenos Aires that any repetition would result in the British regarding the vessel as a combatant and attacking it, Red Cross or no.

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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 15:49
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
The British were not officially at war with Argentina in 1982, but after the Argentine hospital ship ARA Almirante Irizar used its searchlights to illuminate a British raiding party the government in London made it very clear to Buenos Aires that any repetition would result in the British regarding the vessel as a combatant and attacking it, Red Cross or no.
Thank you. Some further collateral:

Great War British Field Ambulances [ie RAMC doctors, nurses, orderlies, stretcher bearers] were unarmed except a notional pistol for officers, and their protection was to be provided by the ASC of the unit [their drivers and bakers and storesmen] fully trained and armed. This probably arose from Victorian "savage warfare" when Zulus, Dervishes and Pathans could rightly not be expected to understand the niceties of conventions.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 19:29
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If the IDF are 'minimising' civilian casualties and have in place mitigations to achieve that aim, why would you flatten a whole building when the only threat coming out of it is single missiles from one small part of it. Not exactly a surgical strike is it?

When the Russians target civilians claiming they are aiming for military targets, the world is outraged - when the Israelis do it, some people applaud. Some sad individuals.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 20:29
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The Israelis aren't trying to kill civilians, the Russians are.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 21:51
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You cannot compare the two conflicts as like for like. The Ukranian military is uniformed and distincly separate from the civilian population. The Russians are targeting the civilians as an obvious war strategy. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza as well as being its military. They don't distinguish themselves as being separate from the civilian population and have shown on October 7 that they are a terrorist organisation. If Israel is to combat Hamas and Hamas is using civilian infrastructure as its fortress then the Palestinian civilians are unfortunately going to get caught in the crossfire. The simple fact is Hamas don't care about their responsibilities to their people, they are just more martyrs in the pointless struggle to extinguish Israel as a nation.
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Old 22nd Nov 2023, 22:14
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
If the IDF are 'minimising' civilian casualties and have in place mitigations to achieve that aim, why would you flatten a whole building when the only threat coming out of it is single missiles from one small part of it. Not exactly a surgical strike is it?

When the Russians target civilians claiming they are aiming for military targets, the world is outraged - when the Israelis do it, some people applaud. Some sad individuals.
It will be "one tiny little missile trying to frighten somebody" next.
Hamas choose to put their civilians in harms way.
Hamas has one objective, destroy Israel. There is Collateral.
Any poor buggers in the building would be just fine if Hamas had not committed gross acts of terrorism. Cause, effect.
Join the dots.
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Old 23rd Nov 2023, 14:03
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
If the IDF are 'minimising' civilian casualties and have in place mitigations to achieve that aim, why would you flatten a whole building when the only threat coming out of it is single missiles from one small part of it. Not exactly a surgical strike is it?
.
The IDF is probably so tied-up searching Hamas terrorist tunnels they can't spare manpower for dealing with jerkoffs who fire missiles from windows instead of waving white flags. So they called the Air Force to clear the building , and they did it their way. Since there's no such thing as Nerf munitions, it looked pretty surgical to me.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 00:02
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The UK will conduct surveillance flights over Israel and Gaza to search for hostage locations used by Hamas, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.

MoD officials said a range of unarmed aircraft would be used for the reconnaissance flights, including Shadow R1s, which are used for intelligence gathering.

Information on the potential whereabouts of captives will be shared with Israel.

“The safety of British nationals is our utmost priority,” the MoD said in a statement. “In support of the ongoing hostage rescue activity, the UK Ministry of Defence will conduct surveillance flights over the Eastern Mediterranean, including operating in airspace over Israel and Gaza.

“Surveillance aircraft will be unarmed, do not have a combat role, and will be tasked solely to locate hostages. Only information relating to hostage rescue will be passed to the relevant authorities responsible for hostage rescue.”


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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 01:48
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He would say that, wouldn't he?
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 04:02
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So now we have IDF, USAF, RAF and some folks that are not there....all flyiing over Gaza looking for Hostages.

But some bright spark decides not to share all of the intelligence data they gather during these flights?

If I was the IDF guy calling the shots the deal would be simple....share everything and coordinate with a central command node....or take your toys and people and go sit out the game elsewhere.

There should be no reason the senior IDF guy should feel like Jimmy Durante.
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 09:43
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Originally Posted by SASless
So now we have IDF, USAF, RAF and some folks that are not there....all flyiing over Gaza looking for Hostages.

But some bright spark decides not to share all of the intelligence data they gather during these flights?

If I was the IDF guy calling the shots the deal would be simple....share everything and coordinate with a central command node....or take your toys and people and go sit out the game elsewhere.

There should be no reason the senior IDF guy should feel like Jimmy Durante.
The IDF has a whole raft of ISTAR assets that provide them with what they need. The Shadow R1 has a capability over and above what the IDF has to help them with their number one priority, to find the hostages. Luckily the Israelis value the help that we provide and are happy utilising this asset. To not try to use everything at their disposal seems self defeating.

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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 10:11
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Interesting..is the RAF's involvement at our request or theirs? Are we looking just for British hostages? If the RAF has a "has a capability over and above what the IDF has" why has it taken nearly 2 months to deploy it?

How many hostages have the IDF found.....IIRC very few... wouldn't be easier to agree a further ceasefire to get more hostages freed?
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Old 3rd Dec 2023, 22:32
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Originally Posted by BBadanov
US MQ-9 Reaper downed near Yemen.
US reports are that in International Airspace, and was shot down by SA-6.
Yep, I realize Yemen not close to Gaza, but in the grand scheme of things...
More from the grand scheme of things...
Commercial ships came under attack Sunday by drones and missiles in the Red Sea and a U.S. warship there opened fire in self-defense as part of an hours long assault claimed by Yemen’s Houthi rebels, officials said. attack potentially marked a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war as multiple vessels found themselves in the crosshairs of a single Houthi assault for the first time in the conflict.
"We’re aware of reports regarding attacks on the USS Carney and commercial vessels in the Red Sea and will provide information as it becomes available," the Defense Department told The Associated Press.

The guided missile destroyer USS Carney
The Carney is an Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer that’s already shot down multiple rockets the Houthis have fired toward Israel so far in the war. It wasn't damaged in the attack and no injuries were reported on board, said a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss early details of a military operation. The Carney responded after hearing from the Bahamas-flagged bulk carrier Unity Explorer that it was under attack by missile fire, the official said. The Carney shot down two drones during the attack, one in self-defense and another after checking on the Unity Explorer, the official said.
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 12:58
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How Israel’s Arrow 3 intercepted a missile in first space battle

In The Times today.

Humanity crossed a threshold in the skies above the Red Sea last month when a Houthi missile heading towards Eilat, Israel’s southernmost city, was shot down outside the Earth’s atmosphere.

The inaugural use of Israel’s Arrow 3 air defence system to destroy a ballistic missile fired from Yemen was the first time the world had ever seen a battle fought in space.

While the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) faced criticism for its failure to capture Yahya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif, the Hamas ringleaders responsible for the October 7 attacks, the scientific breakthrough is arguably more militarily significant. It proves that Israel can swat away a barrage of intercontinental ballistic missiles with as much ease as its Iron Dome short-range air defence system can destroy Hamas rockets.

But for the Israeli scientist who has spent his career studying the physics of cosmic warfare, it was hardly a moment to celebrate. “When you succeed in intercepting a threat, you may feel some pride,” said Professor Isaac Ben-Israel, 74, the chairman of Israel’s space agency. He added: “But excessive pride is risky. You can become too proud and then you become complacent about the next generation of threats.”

Amid escalating tensions with the Iranian-backed Houthis, Israel’s Arrow 3 air defence system has demonstrated its capability by intercepting Houthi missiles, showcasing its effectiveness in countering threats originating from Yemen.

Houthi attacks

The Iranian-backed Houthis have emerged as one of Israel’s most determined and well-armed adversaries.

Last month Houthi commandos wearing balaclavas landed a helicopter on a container ship — just one in a series of hijackings targeting Israeli-linked vessels — and brazenly published footage online.
Then on Sunday, the militia targeted three Israeli-linked commercial vessels navigating the Bab al-Mandab strait, a bottleneck between Yemen and Djibouti in one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. A US destroyer, USS Carney, deployed to the Red Sea to shoot down Houthi missiles aimed at Israel, was forced to intervene, taking out at least three drones.

Arrow 3

The Houthis have amassed an array of Iranian-designed weapons during a nine-year civil war in Yemen fought against the Saudi-backed government, a conflict that has killed over 150,000 people.
On October 31, Israel’s Arrow 2 long-range air defences shot down a Houthi surface-to-surface ballistic missile for the first time. During the same attack, an F-35I fighter jet intercepted a cruise missile that left pieces of shrapnel littered across the Jordanian desert.

Then on November 10, the IDF announced that Arrow 3, the most advanced system in the world, had taken out another Houthi missile, thought to be an Iranian Ghadr-110, an interception that took place outside the Earth’s atmosphere. Footage subsequently released by the IDF shows an Arrow 3 battery located somewhere in the Negev desert illuminating the night sky.

The Arrow missile defence system, developed after 42 Iraqi Scud missiles were fired at Tel Aviv and Haifa in 1991, is designed to shoot down missiles in space before they enter the atmosphere. The interceptions, which cost $3 million per shot, are supposed to take place as far away from Israeli borders as possible.

“We thought one day those missiles could carry nuclear warheads, and therefore we needed to respond as high as possible and as far away from the borders of Israel,” said Ben-Israel, who was head of research and development at the IDF during the early years of Arrow 3’s development.


It is not known where in Yemen the ballistic missiles have been fired from, but the distance from Sanaa, the main Houthi stronghold, to Eilat, is about 1,800km. Ben-Israel said a typical ballistic missile fired 2000km would reach an altitude of 500km — higher than the orbit of the International Space Station — and take roughly ten minutes to reach its target, allowing Israel’s network of satellites and radar stations scanning the Middle East to identify the missile before alerting a 24/7 IDF air defence team whose permission would be sought to intercept it.

“There are human beings in the loop who accept it or reject it. If it’s short-range and Iron Dome, it means you don’t spend too much time on human intervention. It’s more automatic. For longer range you have time,” he said.

Outer space begins at the Kármán line, an altitude of 100km above the Earth’s surface. The Arrow 3 hypersonic missile is designed without fins because there is no air to navigate with beyond the Earth’s atmosphere. Instead, the missile has a rotating thrust nozzle at its bottom, allowing the missile to change direction. A gimballed seeker stabilises the computerised system trying to calculate the precise location of impact.

‘Quantity is always an issue’

The Arrow 3 system was jointly developed by Israel and the US. European countries, who neglected their air defences for a long period of time in the aftermath of the Cold War, have taken notice since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Germany signed a €4 billion deal to buy Arrow 3 in September.

Israel’s air defences — the short-range Iron Dome, the medium-range David’s Sling, and the long-range Arrow 3 —have proven so far that they can deal with the range of threats. But a nightmare scenario would be the simultaneous launch of ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, rockets and kamikaze drones fired from across the Middle East at Tel Aviv — an attack that might involve Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Houthis in Yemen and perhaps others besides, including Iran. Such an attack could challenge Israel’s formidable air defences, Ben-Israel admits. “It’s a question of quantity,” he said. “Quantity is always an issue.”
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 14:07
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A sober analysis, and spot-on based on the challenges of both air defense, and TBM defense.
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Old 10th Dec 2023, 23:48
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Prepare for air strikes….

Initial Reports that Israel has given the Lebanese Government and Military a “48-Hour Ultimatum” to begin Negotiations on an Agreement to return Hezbollah to their Positions which were agreed upon by United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, or else the IDF will launch a Military Operation to Destroy any and all Hezbollah Infrastructure in Southern Lebanon up to the Litani River.


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Old 11th Dec 2023, 09:04
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Fighting a war on two fronts.... never a good idea
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Old 11th Dec 2023, 16:16
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Fighting a war on two fronts.... never a good idea
The Israelis have to fight on however many fronts present themselves. It's never proven to be a problem for them before, I doubt it will cause them too much concern this time around.
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Old 12th Dec 2023, 01:41
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That’s a lot of bombs

https://truthout.org/articles/israel...lt%20on%20Gaza.

The IDF aircraft have been pretty busy for the last couple of months.

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