Former soldier convicted of manslaughter in NI troubles 1988
I rather think not.
Oh and I think my personal experiences of 'The Troubles' (losing family to Terrorists) are TOTALLY relevant.
Last edited by ExAscoteer2; 28th Nov 2022 at 20:07.
melmothtw - I doubt if anyone with my surname could ever be classed as a ‘foreign invader’!!!
I caveat my post here by saying I'm born, bred and living in the Republic. Many of my family of my grandparents generation fought in the war of independence. Some other distant relatives took part in the troubles.
The original "cause" of this is that after a number of rebellions in Ireland centuries ago, the lands of many who were deemed to have taken part were seized by the Crown in retaliation. Poor Protestant settlers from Britain were incentivised to move over and these lands were given to them. This is not the fault of anyone alive today.
The whole establishment of NI was bungled from the get go. The border was drawn in the wrong place. Tyrone, Armagh and Derry were Catholic majority and they did not want to be separated from the Irish Free State as it was at the time.
Secatarianism was rife from day 1. James Craig, the initial First Minister from NI described the province as "A protestant land for protestant people". Catholics could not vote and were banned from the best jobs, shipbuilding and heavy industry at the time. The Civil Rights movement started peacefully, marches etc. These were attacked by the RUC and Loyalist mobs. Things began to spiral, but the Bloody Sunday massacre lit the fuse. The exact causes are heavily disputed, but ultimately unarmed civilians were fired upon. Things exploded. A number of people's minds turned from justice to revenge. This was utterly tragic and decades of senseless bloodshed ensued. There were no innocent organisations or Governments. There is documented collusion between the British Army, RUC, Intelligence Services and the Loyalist Paramilitaries. It is also an open secret that a blind eye was turned to Republican Paramilitaries at many levels in the Republic. Nobody benefitted from this situation, but everyone lost.
Churchill offered NI to De Valera, Thatcher tried to wash her hands of it in private meetings with Haughey before that leaked to the press and she had to reverse course. In recent years it is obvious May and Johnson wanted rid. It is my opinion that the only resolution to the NI question is within NI itself. Both the Republic and Britain should distance themselves as much as reasonably practicable until a real solution is proposed by the people of NI themselves.
I feel so tremendously sorry for the kids in the British Army thrust into that cauldron. Some small amount of them were as evil as the Paramilitaries and we saw that in their actions, but the vast majority were in a situation they did not ask for.
In this particular case, a soldier fired a bullet into the back of a civilian, and the judge deemed he was lying to protect himself. I think the right verdict was reached, but I certainly bear no angry intentions or feelings for him.
The original "cause" of this is that after a number of rebellions in Ireland centuries ago, the lands of many who were deemed to have taken part were seized by the Crown in retaliation. Poor Protestant settlers from Britain were incentivised to move over and these lands were given to them. This is not the fault of anyone alive today.
The whole establishment of NI was bungled from the get go. The border was drawn in the wrong place. Tyrone, Armagh and Derry were Catholic majority and they did not want to be separated from the Irish Free State as it was at the time.
Secatarianism was rife from day 1. James Craig, the initial First Minister from NI described the province as "A protestant land for protestant people". Catholics could not vote and were banned from the best jobs, shipbuilding and heavy industry at the time. The Civil Rights movement started peacefully, marches etc. These were attacked by the RUC and Loyalist mobs. Things began to spiral, but the Bloody Sunday massacre lit the fuse. The exact causes are heavily disputed, but ultimately unarmed civilians were fired upon. Things exploded. A number of people's minds turned from justice to revenge. This was utterly tragic and decades of senseless bloodshed ensued. There were no innocent organisations or Governments. There is documented collusion between the British Army, RUC, Intelligence Services and the Loyalist Paramilitaries. It is also an open secret that a blind eye was turned to Republican Paramilitaries at many levels in the Republic. Nobody benefitted from this situation, but everyone lost.
Churchill offered NI to De Valera, Thatcher tried to wash her hands of it in private meetings with Haughey before that leaked to the press and she had to reverse course. In recent years it is obvious May and Johnson wanted rid. It is my opinion that the only resolution to the NI question is within NI itself. Both the Republic and Britain should distance themselves as much as reasonably practicable until a real solution is proposed by the people of NI themselves.
I feel so tremendously sorry for the kids in the British Army thrust into that cauldron. Some small amount of them were as evil as the Paramilitaries and we saw that in their actions, but the vast majority were in a situation they did not ask for.
In this particular case, a soldier fired a bullet into the back of a civilian, and the judge deemed he was lying to protect himself. I think the right verdict was reached, but I certainly bear no angry intentions or feelings for him.
Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 28th Nov 2022 at 20:51.
In this particular case, a soldier fired a bullet brief 3-round burst into the back of road [nearly 300m away] a [ricochet of which] hit [a] civilian, and [after trying the case again] the [latest] judge deemed he was lying to protect himself. I think the right verdict was reached [in at least one of the prosecutions], but I certainly bear no angry intentions or feelings for him.
Having been there, yes with HM forces but interestingly in an Irish Regiment of the British Army where 60 % of our soldiers came from the North 30 % from the south the remaining 10% from Uk mainland ( half my family comes from Ballymena before anyone asks ) so speak with a reasonable amount of experience.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
Having been there, yes with HM forces but interestingly in an Irish Regiment of the British Army where 60 % of our soldiers came from the North 30 % from the south the remaining 10% from Uk mainland ( half my family comes from Ballymena before anyone asks ) so speak with a reasonable amount of experience.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
These young men were failed by their State in my opinion, but putting the back of a civilian in your sights and pulling the trigger.....this is at BEST reckless endangerment, at worst.....I don't want to say.
Having been there, yes with HM forces but interestingly in an Irish Regiment of the British Army where 60 % of our soldiers came from the North 30 % from the south the remaining 10% from Uk mainland ( half my family comes from Ballymena before anyone asks ) so speak with a reasonable amount of experience.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
To all of you I would ask the following questions
1. Been shot at by someone who is not in a uniform and hiding in plain site amongst the civilian population ?
2. Been in a riot where people are throwing petrol bombs at you with the intent to kill you ?
3. Watched a baying mob drag 2 soldiers from a car and beat the **** out of them and murder them infront of so called Catholic Priests ?
4. Seen Catholic Priests on UTV say it is disgraceful that The British Army shot dead 7 of 8 terrorists in an ambush saying it was unfair as they were hiding and not in uniform ?
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad. Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No, but and it is a big but ,the other side gets off scot free so where is the so called justice, where is the fairness? To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong. With your attitude you will never get anyone to defend our country and its freedoms. I certainly would not sign on again and with the attitude of some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
Should he have squeezed the trigger ? No
some of you where you think it is acceptable for one side to be given an amnesty and the other side ( and the side that was legally put there )not to be given the same is unacceptable.
When you can answer yes to those questions then you are in a position to perhaps pass judgement on a young lad
To those like Melmothtw if to prosecute him is your idea of fairness then I am sorry you are wrong.
In the absence of being called out again, I'll leave this thread now.
‘Una Due Tfc’ you make some valid points, but many of them don’t stand up to scrutiny when you analyse them:
a. ‘The border was drawn in the wrong place. Tyrone, Armagh and Derry were Catholic majority…’
Not true…Armagh had a (slim) Protestant majority!
b. James Craig, the initial First Minister from NI described the province as ‘A protestant land for protestant people’. (Actually, to be pedantic he was Prime Minister – ‘First Minister’ is a designation from the Belfast Agreement 1998)
Most people misquote this, and conveniently forgets what he said in the first part of this speech on 24th April 1934. This was ‘Since we took up office, we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part.’ And the actual in reply to a question from George Leeke of the Nationalist Party was…’ The Honourable Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State.’
c. ‘Catholics could not vote…’
Really?!! Obviously, you didn’t read my earlier refutation of this old trope!!!
d. ‘The Civil Rights movement started peacefully…’
Possibly, but it was quickly infiltrated by militant Republicans who used the Civil Rights protests as a cover to renew their attack on the State following their failed 'Border Campaign, 1956-62!
e. ‘There is documented collusion between the British Army, RUC, Intelligence Services and the Loyalist Paramilitaries…’
This is irrefutable, but there is also documented collusion between An Garda Siochana and the Provisional IRA!!! Remember the murder of Ch Supt Harry Breen and Supt Bob Buchanan murdered by PIRA after they left a meeting at Dundalk Garda Station in March 1989? Nope, probably not as it doesn’t fit your narrative.
f. ‘Churchill offered NI to De Valera,’
Yes, potentially to entice the Republic to eschew its neutrality, but just how would Churchill have achieved such a thing?!? By the way, De Valera rejected this offer out of hand, and then gave his condolences to the German Embassy in Dublin following Hitler’s suicide!!! And ironically De Valera’s intransigence effectively copper fastened the Union. Churchill said after the war - ‘But for the loyalty of Northern Ireland we should have been confronted with slavery and death and the light which now shines so strongly throughout the world would have been quenched.’ And then in 1949 came ‘The Ireland Act’ that stated that ‘[it is] hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part thereof cease to be part of His Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the Parliament [now the people] of Northern Ireland.’
Et sic porro…
Undertaking my Masters taught me one important fact – objectivity! Whilst you may not like it, and it can make you uncomfortable, you must shed any baggage that you carry and see the facts as they are, and not through the lenses of orange (or indeed green) tinted glasses!
a. ‘The border was drawn in the wrong place. Tyrone, Armagh and Derry were Catholic majority…’
Not true…Armagh had a (slim) Protestant majority!
b. James Craig, the initial First Minister from NI described the province as ‘A protestant land for protestant people’. (Actually, to be pedantic he was Prime Minister – ‘First Minister’ is a designation from the Belfast Agreement 1998)
Most people misquote this, and conveniently forgets what he said in the first part of this speech on 24th April 1934. This was ‘Since we took up office, we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part.’ And the actual in reply to a question from George Leeke of the Nationalist Party was…’ The Honourable Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State.’
c. ‘Catholics could not vote…’
Really?!! Obviously, you didn’t read my earlier refutation of this old trope!!!
d. ‘The Civil Rights movement started peacefully…’
Possibly, but it was quickly infiltrated by militant Republicans who used the Civil Rights protests as a cover to renew their attack on the State following their failed 'Border Campaign, 1956-62!
e. ‘There is documented collusion between the British Army, RUC, Intelligence Services and the Loyalist Paramilitaries…’
This is irrefutable, but there is also documented collusion between An Garda Siochana and the Provisional IRA!!! Remember the murder of Ch Supt Harry Breen and Supt Bob Buchanan murdered by PIRA after they left a meeting at Dundalk Garda Station in March 1989? Nope, probably not as it doesn’t fit your narrative.
f. ‘Churchill offered NI to De Valera,’
Yes, potentially to entice the Republic to eschew its neutrality, but just how would Churchill have achieved such a thing?!? By the way, De Valera rejected this offer out of hand, and then gave his condolences to the German Embassy in Dublin following Hitler’s suicide!!! And ironically De Valera’s intransigence effectively copper fastened the Union. Churchill said after the war - ‘But for the loyalty of Northern Ireland we should have been confronted with slavery and death and the light which now shines so strongly throughout the world would have been quenched.’ And then in 1949 came ‘The Ireland Act’ that stated that ‘[it is] hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part thereof cease to be part of His Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the Parliament [now the people] of Northern Ireland.’
Et sic porro…
Undertaking my Masters taught me one important fact – objectivity! Whilst you may not like it, and it can make you uncomfortable, you must shed any baggage that you carry and see the facts as they are, and not through the lenses of orange (or indeed green) tinted glasses!
Hughes I have the utmost sympathy for the situation you were placed in, the murder of young innocent British Soldiers who were there under orders was abhorrent, evil, vile, monstrous....but firing on the back of someone is against the Army's ROE, let alone the civilian law implications.
These young men were failed by their State in my opinion, but putting the back of a civilian in your sights and pulling the trigger.....this is at BEST reckless endangerment, at worst.....I don't want to say.
These young men were failed by their State in my opinion, but putting the back of a civilian in your sights and pulling the trigger.....this is at BEST reckless endangerment, at worst.....I don't want to say.
This always happens in what amounts to war zones, and is not unique to The Troubles. It has featured in modern Irish history since before the formation of the Free State, with violent criminals being allowed to operate under either the covert consent of the ruling government (as happened in the Six Counties), or just because the normal checks and balances of law and order are absent. An example would be the gang rape of my grandmother, at the hands of the Black and Tans, at a time when Ireland was under British rule. She never really recovered from that and took her own life when I was a small boy.
It is a truism that the "winning" side always gets to write history, something I didn't really grasp until I was an adult. I was born in England, and didn't take up my Irish citizenship until after a trip to Ireland on my honeymoon. We visited my family, and walked around a museum in Limerick where they had an exhibit covering the history of Ireland from the period around the Easter Rising, through the War of Independence, the formation of the Free State and the Irish Civil War, to the eventual creation of the Republic of Ireland. The portrayal of Irish history I saw there was very different to that I had been taught at school in England. My history teachers at school had openly lied to me, of that I am certain. The truth probably lies somewhere between the two versions of history, but the reality is that the British Empire got to write the version accepted within that Empire, and it is not an accurate portrayal of eventsl.
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So Melmothtw, so should the soldier be convicted 30 odd years later ? I assume you agree , it is not a case of taking it up with the British Govt, I would like to know your personal position. Is it fair that one side is given an amnesty yet the other side isnt ?
To answer your second question, no it is plainly not fair that one side gets an amnesty while the other does not, but that's the deal that the British government made to secure peace.
No it's the deal that Blair and the present leader of the opposition Keir Starmer agreed.
Yes, my personal opinion is that there should not be a statute of limitations on murder, and the UK justice system agrees.
To answer your second question, no it is plainly not fair that one side gets an amnesty while the other does not, but that's the deal that the British government made to secure peace.
To answer your second question, no it is plainly not fair that one side gets an amnesty while the other does not, but that's the deal that the British government made to secure peace.
Well that should perhaps be changed. What about the perpetrators of Warrenpoint ? Or those c@@@s that kept blowing up the Europa Hotel, maiming hundreds. Or those that drove the car in to Oxford Street bus station ? And then blew it up, instantly killing 6 and maiming hundreds. I then had the pleasure of watching a squaddie shovel body parts and glass in to the back of a truck…aged 11, with my grandad. This is the sort of **** that these kids ( for that is what the majority of them were) had to put up with. Years later when I was dropping different young men off from the back of the Wessex they were sh@t scared. Given that a sizeable part of the population in those areas could quite happily have put a bullet in the back of their heads. So, we could go on and on about the various atrocities on both sides. And the endless cycles of revenge and mistrust.
However, in the interests of truth and reconciliation to convict an individual 30 + years after the event is frankly a nonsense. In much the same way as awarding compensation to those murderous bastards of the PIRA for wrongful arrest is a travesty of justice.
Amnesty for all. Or not at all.
And concur with all the previous about NI. Much prefer the present version with the sun roof open than the dark old days. Pretty sure that could have been achieved with an amnesty for all however. As opposed to the recent outbreak of one sided justice.
I’m sorry _Agrajag_ to which six of the 32 counties do you refer? Tipperary, Clare. Meath, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford perhaps?
The name of the place which appears to be such anathema to you is ‘Northern Ireland’. And for you to refer to it, twice, using such a pejorative term, betrays a degree of (unconscious?) bias – perhaps understandable given the unimaginable trauma suffered by your family – however, that makes me question the objectivity in the rest of your argument.
MENELAUS, you and I must be of a vintage. I too recall, with horror, the images of the Oxford Street Bus Station bombing, and indeed the other 19 IRA bombs that exploded around Belfast, with minimal or no warning on Bloody Friday – 21 July 1972. In those days the BBC didn’t give ‘trigger warnings’ or state that ‘some viewers may find the following images distressing’! When the first pictures of limbless torsos being literally brushed into a tarpaulin appeared on BBC NI’s ‘Scene Around Six’, my parents couldn’t switch off our TV quickly enough – however, some 50 years later that is still seared in my memory.
It was carnage such as this, and La Mon, and the Abercorn etc etc that influenced a generation. Many, like myself joined the military, (both regular and the Ulster Defence Regiment), others the RUC (and many paid the supreme sacrifice for protecting all sections of the community, irrespective of what some agenda-driven, revisionist historians would have you believe). But unfortunately, some, and some of these are bound to have been contemporaries of mine, went to the dark side and joined the UDA or UVF. Sad, but true, and I in no way condone their totally misguided actions.
Terrorism, from whatever side of the community is abhorrent and wrong and is to be condemned without reservation.
PS…_Agrajag_ - TE Utley’s description of an Ulsterman as the ‘first to give, and the first to take, offence’ may, or indeed may not, be apposite here!!!
PPS…and yes, I’ve seen Harry Enfield’s portrayal of ‘William Ulsterman’ on the ‘Tube of You’, and I find it bloody hilarious!!!
The name of the place which appears to be such anathema to you is ‘Northern Ireland’. And for you to refer to it, twice, using such a pejorative term, betrays a degree of (unconscious?) bias – perhaps understandable given the unimaginable trauma suffered by your family – however, that makes me question the objectivity in the rest of your argument.
MENELAUS, you and I must be of a vintage. I too recall, with horror, the images of the Oxford Street Bus Station bombing, and indeed the other 19 IRA bombs that exploded around Belfast, with minimal or no warning on Bloody Friday – 21 July 1972. In those days the BBC didn’t give ‘trigger warnings’ or state that ‘some viewers may find the following images distressing’! When the first pictures of limbless torsos being literally brushed into a tarpaulin appeared on BBC NI’s ‘Scene Around Six’, my parents couldn’t switch off our TV quickly enough – however, some 50 years later that is still seared in my memory.
It was carnage such as this, and La Mon, and the Abercorn etc etc that influenced a generation. Many, like myself joined the military, (both regular and the Ulster Defence Regiment), others the RUC (and many paid the supreme sacrifice for protecting all sections of the community, irrespective of what some agenda-driven, revisionist historians would have you believe). But unfortunately, some, and some of these are bound to have been contemporaries of mine, went to the dark side and joined the UDA or UVF. Sad, but true, and I in no way condone their totally misguided actions.
Terrorism, from whatever side of the community is abhorrent and wrong and is to be condemned without reservation.
PS…_Agrajag_ - TE Utley’s description of an Ulsterman as the ‘first to give, and the first to take, offence’ may, or indeed may not, be apposite here!!!
PPS…and yes, I’ve seen Harry Enfield’s portrayal of ‘William Ulsterman’ on the ‘Tube of You’, and I find it bloody hilarious!!!
I’m sorry _Agrajag_ to which six of the 32 counties do you refer? Tipperary, Clare. Meath, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford perhaps?
The name of the place which appears to be such anathema to you is ‘Northern Ireland’. And for you to refer to it, twice, using such a pejorative term, betrays a degree of (unconscious?) bias – perhaps understandable given the unimaginable trauma suffered by your family – however, that makes me question the objectivity in the rest of your argument.
The name of the place which appears to be such anathema to you is ‘Northern Ireland’. And for you to refer to it, twice, using such a pejorative term, betrays a degree of (unconscious?) bias – perhaps understandable given the unimaginable trauma suffered by your family – however, that makes me question the objectivity in the rest of your argument.
PS…_Agrajag_ - TE Utley’s description of an Ulsterman as the ‘first to give, and the first to take, offence’ may, or indeed may not, be apposite here!!!
PPS…and yes, I’ve seen Harry Enfield’s portrayal of ‘William Ulsterman’ on the ‘Tube of You’, and I find it bloody hilarious!!!
PPS…and yes, I’ve seen Harry Enfield’s portrayal of ‘William Ulsterman’ on the ‘Tube of You’, and I find it bloody hilarious!!!
As you well know, there are nine counties in Ulster, only six of them are a part of the UK, the other three are in the RoI (Co. Donegal, Co. Monaghan & Co. Cavan). The British media used Ulster as a pejorative term to describe the Six Counties from before The Troubles until a couple of decades ago, when they finally started to phase it out and use the term Northern Ireland. Even now the British media often refer to the RoI as "Southern Ireland", a state that ceased to exist in 1937, as another attempt to pretend that the RoI was still a part of the UK.
The use of the term Ulster to describe UK ruled Northern Ireland was deliberately provocative terminology that was aimed at keeping what they saw as the uppity Irish in their place. It wasn't until around the time of the GFA that the media (and the British government) stopped misusing the term Ulster to describe their bit of the island of Ireland. FWIW, even Wikipedia has this as the first paragraph on its entry about Ulster (my highlight in the quote below):
Ulster . . . is one of the four traditional Irish provinces. It is made up of nine counties: six of these constitute Northern Ireland (a part of the United Kingdom); the remaining three are in the Republic of Ireland.
I hadn't intended to join this discussion but I must support OJ72's comments above. They are all the more timely in view of the moves over the weekend for a public inquiry into the Omagh bombings in which 18 innocent shoppers were killed. To OJ72's citing of Garda-IRA collusion I would add the murder of two judges returning from Dublin. I too lost friends on both sides of the divide. I too spent long hours on stag awaiting a suprise attack perhaps from the civilian strolling past on the far side of the street. I have sampled the unique musky smell of a thousand-strong mob intent on riot. To pursue a stressed-out youngster who made a fatal mistake when countless murderers walk free is not justice.
Many if not most Republicans were glad to see the arrival of the Army to quell attacks from Unionist mobs. When my friends in 2 Queen's took up positions in (Republican) Divis Street Belfast on August 15 1969 I went up with 24 fish suppers only to find the local residents had liberally supplied with tea, scones and sandwiches. To this day I remember the comment of their company officer, Capt. John Gerelli: "Today they're bringing us tea and biscuits, tomorrow they'll be throwing stones or worse. We'll end up pig in the middle, we always do".
Fifty-three years later John is long gone, but his prophesy still echoes today.
Many if not most Republicans were glad to see the arrival of the Army to quell attacks from Unionist mobs. When my friends in 2 Queen's took up positions in (Republican) Divis Street Belfast on August 15 1969 I went up with 24 fish suppers only to find the local residents had liberally supplied with tea, scones and sandwiches. To this day I remember the comment of their company officer, Capt. John Gerelli: "Today they're bringing us tea and biscuits, tomorrow they'll be throwing stones or worse. We'll end up pig in the middle, we always do".
Fifty-three years later John is long gone, but his prophesy still echoes today.
Divis Flats. Now long gone. Cracking spot to jettison fuel. Allegedly.