OpSec issues from Ukraine War
It is an issue on facebook certainly.
people posting information they may see as harmless when in reality it carries risk. It must carry risk making it more widely available.
it may be open-source but why give it out on a plate.
Everyone on here will have a digital trail of birthday, place of birth, wife's name, pet's name etc and we all accept that and do.our best to mitigate any risks to ourselves. All of this info is "out there" so if I understand this correctly none of you who cannot see the problem would be happy for anyone to compile that data and publish it in one place for all the world to see?
When the facebook aviation groups are challenged on what they allow to be published 99% get it and stop it from happening. There remains the 1% who are only in it for the clicks and likes and don't care about what the consequences could be, no matter how unlikely.
If it "could" help an enemy/terrorist/subversive then don't post it.
people posting information they may see as harmless when in reality it carries risk. It must carry risk making it more widely available.
it may be open-source but why give it out on a plate.
Everyone on here will have a digital trail of birthday, place of birth, wife's name, pet's name etc and we all accept that and do.our best to mitigate any risks to ourselves. All of this info is "out there" so if I understand this correctly none of you who cannot see the problem would be happy for anyone to compile that data and publish it in one place for all the world to see?
When the facebook aviation groups are challenged on what they allow to be published 99% get it and stop it from happening. There remains the 1% who are only in it for the clicks and likes and don't care about what the consequences could be, no matter how unlikely.
If it "could" help an enemy/terrorist/subversive then don't post it.
I would suggest that OS information is hurting the Russians far more than the Ukrainians. They seem to be doing a very good job of leveraging OS sources to locate and kill Russian armor. I believe the first engagement on day 1 was when the Ukrainians used Google maps reports of "traffic jams" at obscure cross roads as cueing 
Mods, my question was genuine.
There is concern among some here that posting information could be harmful to friendly forces.
My question may have appeared flippant, however, if genuine intelligence can be gathered here, is it also possible to misinform unfriendly forces in the same way?
There is concern among some here that posting information could be harmful to friendly forces.
My question may have appeared flippant, however, if genuine intelligence can be gathered here, is it also possible to misinform unfriendly forces in the same way?
My question would be "How do you know it is misinformation, and not actually what is happening?" I suggest leaving that to the intel experts to work on.
Back to Falklands and Goose Green...
The Argentinian defenders heard the BBC broadcast that an attack on Goose Green was imminent and the officer in charge took it as a spoof expecting it to divert resources from a real other attack position; he told his chaps at Goose to relax.
edited to add...
On the original discussion in the other thread there was an FR24 screenshot of a single voyager routing northwest. That post was accompanied with the additional bit of info - (with FGR4) . which was not painting.
WHY did that have to be added? Does the poster not see the potential harm in doing so?
Last edited by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY; 19th Mar 2022 at 01:43.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly in my own imagination
Posts: 477
Received 337 Likes
on
155 Posts
It was the cold open of a Saturday Night Live showing a press conference at the start of Gulf War I (I think) where the journalists were asking obviously inappropriate questions like "Where are we most vulnerable?" and "Give us some examples of the passwords American forces might use". Don't know why the link didn't work, but I'm sure if you search Youtube you'll find it
SNL - usually as funny as a serious medical diagnosis IMO, but this time is was pretty amusing
SNL - usually as funny as a serious medical diagnosis IMO, but this time is was pretty amusing
Even the videos of missile hits / near misses are potentially very useful in thinking about tactics.
(Very) amateur military historian that I am, I have recently been reading of WWII aircraft not returning over PNG. Was it weather, lack of fuel, AAA damage, fighter interception,’other’? The other side telling you what they knew helped plan your next raid.
Equally lies & deception worked too.
(Very) amateur military historian that I am, I have recently been reading of WWII aircraft not returning over PNG. Was it weather, lack of fuel, AAA damage, fighter interception,’other’? The other side telling you what they knew helped plan your next raid.
Equally lies & deception worked too.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,073
Received 2,942 Likes
on
1,253 Posts
I remember watching a Ukrainian aircraft tracking across Europe several weeks ago before it went dark several hundred miles from their borders.
There might well be operational reasons why tankers and the like haven’t gone dark to show Russia they are there and are active and in the cases of tankers on racetracks to say we are here and although you cannot see them we are not alone, or maybe they are but either way you cannot see that fact.
The internet can be good and bad, I should imagine Ukraine is scouring it for films uploaded by their countrymen showing Russian movements in theatre so they can work out who and what is where.
There might well be operational reasons why tankers and the like haven’t gone dark to show Russia they are there and are active and in the cases of tankers on racetracks to say we are here and although you cannot see them we are not alone, or maybe they are but either way you cannot see that fact.
The internet can be good and bad, I should imagine Ukraine is scouring it for films uploaded by their countrymen showing Russian movements in theatre so they can work out who and what is where.
Even if all the information you post is freely available on the internet - by compiling it in a post and spreading it, potentially even translating or interpreting it, you are still effectively doing the job of an opposition intelligence gatherer for them, for free.
The more places this stuff gets posted, the quicker it is to find, the less likely it is to be missed, the less time is spent looking for it. Obviously, aviation related information tends to be as time critical as it can get.
Acting as a literal resource for a hostile power, even if only in a minor role. I don't see any way to justify that.
The more places this stuff gets posted, the quicker it is to find, the less likely it is to be missed, the less time is spent looking for it. Obviously, aviation related information tends to be as time critical as it can get.
Acting as a literal resource for a hostile power, even if only in a minor role. I don't see any way to justify that.
Administrator
/not as a mod
Gentlemen and ladies:
I feel that BEagle's instincts are correct.
The world is a different place than the one a lot of us grew up in, as regards OPSEC
However
most of us were well trained in how important Not Tipping Off the opposing forces is.
With that in mind, a bit of discretion should be considered before one chooses to post ~something~ on the internet.
All things considered, the above leads to this guiding principle: think before you post.
The information age has made information into a kind of weapon, whether we like it or not.
To whom are you willing to hand a weapon?
Please carry on, but also please do so mindfully.
Gentlemen and ladies:
I feel that BEagle's instincts are correct.
The world is a different place than the one a lot of us grew up in, as regards OPSEC
However
most of us were well trained in how important Not Tipping Off the opposing forces is.
- If you served, you understand what I am referring to.
- If you didn't, please take your posts to Jet Blast.
With that in mind, a bit of discretion should be considered before one chooses to post ~something~ on the internet.
All things considered, the above leads to this guiding principle: think before you post.
The information age has made information into a kind of weapon, whether we like it or not.
To whom are you willing to hand a weapon?
Please carry on, but also please do so mindfully.
Drain Bamaged
While complaining about “secrets” being exposed via Flightradar24 is laughable, post #23 about Google map is one of those stories that should have been have been kept under the carpet by the Ukrainien (If true)
I'm strangely reminded of an article that came out a few years before consumer ADS-B receivers became widely available, about how they would inevitably turn out to be a terrorist's dream and a security nightmare ...
Indeed. Especially showing the use of consumer drones to spot for mortar and artillery.
I am also very surprised about the open admission that Russian senior commanders are being located and targeted through their use of insecure comms, including civilian mobile phones. Surely you would want to keep that secret so you can continue to hit them ? It reminds me of the (apocryphal?) story from the Falklands that the press reporting of many unexploded bombs, caused the Argentinians to review their fusing technique and fix the problem.
Both seem so odd to me, that I wonder if it's mostly false but designed to create fear and confusion among the invaders. eg extreme reluctance by a commander to make a call renders him useless?
"Hey Yuri, forget radar and spy satellite, have just seen post by Cessna150Captain on PPRuNe! Can watch aircraft on degenerate Western FR24! Problem they not take Rubles for subscription! Keep looking at free service and write down all you see!"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Outside the 12 mile limit
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FR24
As an interesting aside, when the war started FR24 showed NATO EWACS on patrol. Since last week they don't show up. Either they are not flying, (they are) or transponders turned off or FR24 have blocked them? ( still on other tracking sites therefore FR24 must have blocked them)
Even Google (earth) will blot out details of airbases etc if asked.
One of the reasons the Ukrainians are doing so well is their use of ALL sources - social media, satellites, drones etc - to build a detailed picture.
This is the new world - the idea you can hide anything big for very long is long gone
it's 15 years since I was told by an ex USMC SO lecturing at at a US college "we tell people that anything they commit to any electronic media is no longer secret - it's just a matter of time before it's public"
One of the reasons the Ukrainians are doing so well is their use of ALL sources - social media, satellites, drones etc - to build a detailed picture.
This is the new world - the idea you can hide anything big for very long is long gone
it's 15 years since I was told by an ex USMC SO lecturing at at a US college "we tell people that anything they commit to any electronic media is no longer secret - it's just a matter of time before it's public"
"I am also very surprised about the open admission that Russian senior commanders are being located and targeted through their use of insecure comms, including civilian mobile phones"
Well considering the one of the first documented uses of hitting someone using their mobile phone was the Russians hitting a Taleban leader in Afghanistan 30 years ago (and THAT took some planning in those far off days) I don't think it's much of a top secret tactic
Well considering the one of the first documented uses of hitting someone using their mobile phone was the Russians hitting a Taleban leader in Afghanistan 30 years ago (and THAT took some planning in those far off days) I don't think it's much of a top secret tactic
Opsec is for inside information. Like NDAs. Beyond that there seems to be no way to turn back tweets and videos in todays mobile phone world. Information gets professionally monitored, harvested and manipulated anyway. Take the Kabul retreat where live pictures on TV (multiple) were days ahead of the official situation reports. In fact you could monitor the helicopters of the fleeing president live on air. Whatever is outside will be seen and spread globally.
I'm not trying to troll anyone but was reflecting on this, and there's actually a very recent example of the degree to which highly sensitive information now makes its way into the public domain very quickly, despite the understandable best wishes of those in uniform.
And for anyone worried about BEADWINDOW - this has been widely reported across social media and on mainstream websites including the NYT, so will be no news to anyone hostile monitoring this site.
About four days ago a new and previously unknown type of decoy deployed by Iskander missiles was shown visually, both whole and disassembled, and discussed in the clear in some detail.
A decade or two ago, I would suggest that doing so would have absolutely been verboten.
For example, during the Cold War, a distinctive small antennae at the back of some types of Soviet SAMs was a very closely guarded NSA secret, because the Americans knew how to jam the signals it emitted (again, it's now in several James Bamford books - no sensitive information there).
But today...?
The wreckage is photographed on an iPhone and uploaded in a second.
A coarse, word only text search in Google can aggregate a huge amount of information... much as I love PPrune and enjoy chatting with those of you who have worn a uniform - I suspect we're not really doing any work for Russia in aggregating and posting material that they're not already aware of.
There is a heightened general knowledge of previously classified technologies, organisations etc.
The Falklands War was cited as an example earlier - it' easy to forget that at that point if I'd asked about something called the National Reconnaissance Office I probably would have been told there was no such thing.
The volume of information on Twitter alone now is astonishing, from both sides in this war.
I'd scornfully dismissed it as a sewer of uniformed noise - while Mrs T (one of those dreadful TV News producer people) enthused about it.
Wanting to follow the war in great detail, because I'm so concerned about the geopolitics of it all, I dived in.
My God...
And for anyone worried about BEADWINDOW - this has been widely reported across social media and on mainstream websites including the NYT, so will be no news to anyone hostile monitoring this site.
About four days ago a new and previously unknown type of decoy deployed by Iskander missiles was shown visually, both whole and disassembled, and discussed in the clear in some detail.
A decade or two ago, I would suggest that doing so would have absolutely been verboten.
For example, during the Cold War, a distinctive small antennae at the back of some types of Soviet SAMs was a very closely guarded NSA secret, because the Americans knew how to jam the signals it emitted (again, it's now in several James Bamford books - no sensitive information there).
But today...?
The wreckage is photographed on an iPhone and uploaded in a second.
A coarse, word only text search in Google can aggregate a huge amount of information... much as I love PPrune and enjoy chatting with those of you who have worn a uniform - I suspect we're not really doing any work for Russia in aggregating and posting material that they're not already aware of.
There is a heightened general knowledge of previously classified technologies, organisations etc.
The Falklands War was cited as an example earlier - it' easy to forget that at that point if I'd asked about something called the National Reconnaissance Office I probably would have been told there was no such thing.
The volume of information on Twitter alone now is astonishing, from both sides in this war.
I'd scornfully dismissed it as a sewer of uniformed noise - while Mrs T (one of those dreadful TV News producer people) enthused about it.
Wanting to follow the war in great detail, because I'm so concerned about the geopolitics of it all, I dived in.
My God...
"The Falklands War was cited as an example earlier "
and of course that was 40 years ago - no mobile phones, little internet, no commercial satellite images available in almost real time.
Tho given the lack of people and the cost of using a phone in the FI it's probably one of the few places you COULD fight a semi-secret war these days
and of course that was 40 years ago - no mobile phones, little internet, no commercial satellite images available in almost real time.
Tho given the lack of people and the cost of using a phone in the FI it's probably one of the few places you COULD fight a semi-secret war these days