RAF F-14A Tomcat?
Was the Tornado F3 intended to fully replace the Phantom?
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)
I was intrigued by the comment that the F14 was a maintenance nighmare...the Iranians seem to manage OK with no assistance from the manufacturer....
Unless someone knows different!
Unless someone knows different!
They manage to keep a few going by superhuman effort but its not many active aircraft - most sources reckon they have about 20 available
If you watch the film Final Countdown and the scene where the F14's are dogfighting with Zekes one of the F14's looses control and nearly crashes into the sea.
I forget the reason but it was quite a close thing if I remember.
I forget the reason but it was quite a close thing if I remember.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dorset
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having flown both the Tomcat (A an A+ models) and the F3, I can state that the F3 was not a match for the F-14 even with the older engines.
As to the Final Countdown post, I think you need to research the scene before you post such a comment.
As to the Final Countdown post, I think you need to research the scene before you post such a comment.
Last edited by Lone Kestrel; 23rd Dec 2021 at 10:35.
No doubt that if we had ordered the F14, it wouldn't have been an off the shelf model.
It would have had to have lots of UK input and you know how long that takes to do and how much it costs...
It would have had to have lots of UK input and you know how long that takes to do and how much it costs...
Buster15
Yes, the fatigue index (FI) problems were induced by running RB199 at medium and high level. You had to constantly load/unload the aircraft to keep some smash on as the SEP was poor. With EJ200 then you should have been able to pull and keep pulling at 7g (depending on fuel weight) and that would only put one count on the fatigue meter - with RB199 then you would probably have more like 20 counts and an over banked turn at that!
Lone Kestrel
Agreed that the F14A had a better instantaneous turn rate due to the lifting-body fuselage of the Tomcat’s widely spaced engines. But when it comes to thrust to weight then the F14A, F4 and F3 are frighteningly close. Also, the F3 was quicker than Tomcat at low level which was what ASR 395 had as one of its goals - chasing down BLACKJACK and BACKFIRE at low level. I used to love chasing down B1 and F111 who thought they could run away! Something that none of the competition for ASR 395 could get close to compared to the F3. But that was part of the problem, BAe very carefully matched F3 to ASR 395 which meant it was rubbish against the likes of FULCRUM and FLANKER when they appeared in the ‘80s and also in dogfights against F14A+/B/D, F15, F16 and F18 on exercises like RED FLAG. However, it was the clever stuff that they did with the F3s avionics that kept it still potent - RADAR upgrades, a fully correlated JTIDS L16 picture, a very fine RHWR, good self protection (chaff, flare and TRD (the first on a fast jet to be operationally deployed) and then the ASRAAM/AMRAAM C. It used to annoy the crap out of our Colonial Cousins when our piece of crap dogfighter would return 4:1 to 7:1 kill ratios on COPE THUNDER, RED FLAG, MAPLE FLAG, etc…
One thing I didn’t mention about Tomcat was the F14D. The AWG 9 was replaced by APG71 - a revised version of F15’s APG70. Now that really was the ultimate Tomcat and with the new engines it could wipe the floor with almost all adversaries in BVR and dogfighting. It also had colossal range, which is not seen in many of today’s aircraft - it could go well past Mach 2 as well, which again many of today’s fighters are unable to do. So the F14D really was the ultimate and the F18F that replaced it sadly doesn’t come near for me for a number of reasons.
Would the F3 have really been able to utilise the significant EJ200 thrust increase from a structural perspective ?
Lone Kestrel
Agreed that the F14A had a better instantaneous turn rate due to the lifting-body fuselage of the Tomcat’s widely spaced engines. But when it comes to thrust to weight then the F14A, F4 and F3 are frighteningly close. Also, the F3 was quicker than Tomcat at low level which was what ASR 395 had as one of its goals - chasing down BLACKJACK and BACKFIRE at low level. I used to love chasing down B1 and F111 who thought they could run away! Something that none of the competition for ASR 395 could get close to compared to the F3. But that was part of the problem, BAe very carefully matched F3 to ASR 395 which meant it was rubbish against the likes of FULCRUM and FLANKER when they appeared in the ‘80s and also in dogfights against F14A+/B/D, F15, F16 and F18 on exercises like RED FLAG. However, it was the clever stuff that they did with the F3s avionics that kept it still potent - RADAR upgrades, a fully correlated JTIDS L16 picture, a very fine RHWR, good self protection (chaff, flare and TRD (the first on a fast jet to be operationally deployed) and then the ASRAAM/AMRAAM C. It used to annoy the crap out of our Colonial Cousins when our piece of crap dogfighter would return 4:1 to 7:1 kill ratios on COPE THUNDER, RED FLAG, MAPLE FLAG, etc…
One thing I didn’t mention about Tomcat was the F14D. The AWG 9 was replaced by APG71 - a revised version of F15’s APG70. Now that really was the ultimate Tomcat and with the new engines it could wipe the floor with almost all adversaries in BVR and dogfighting. It also had colossal range, which is not seen in many of today’s aircraft - it could go well past Mach 2 as well, which again many of today’s fighters are unable to do. So the F14D really was the ultimate and the F18F that replaced it sadly doesn’t come near for me for a number of reasons.
It came a bit late but the two seat F-15 with E model strengthening and conformal tanks and vastly improved radar would have fitted the bill nicely.
Was the Tornado F3 intended to fully replace the Phantom?
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)
Was the Tornado F3 intended to fully replace the Phantom?
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)
FB
PS Merry Christmas everyone, and those who provided anecdotes and piccies etc for my two projects, both due out on 1 Feb '22, so I shall need to confirm I've got all your details etc for your free singed copy!
Oh, one more thing, as has been suggested, yes the residual Phantoms, at least, were originally to hang on until the arrival of the Typhoon for its agility and more suitable deployment in the Central Region.
As to the Final Countdown post, I think you need to research the scene before you post such a comment.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/how-...ogfight-scene/
PS. I should add that Tornado F3 was the product of RAF Air Staff Requirement 395 (ASR 395) that dates back to the early 1970s to look for an interceptor to replace English Electric Lightning and Phantom FGR2. ASR 395 was for a Mach 2 interceptor capable of chasing down and shooting down long range bombers in the Iceland-Faroes Gap. The contract was awarded in 1976 for BAe to build 3x Air Defence Variant (ADV) Tornados. The F14A first flew in 1970 and was with the USN from 1974.
At the time for ASR 395 there were 4 options on the table:
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
At the time for ASR 395 there were 4 options on the table:
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
Would Foxhunter not fit on a F-15?
Too late but the F-16XL would have a made the basis of a superb interceptor – apart from the toy Radar on the front of a F-16.
Otherwise lots of fuel and performance – only trading sustained turn rate.
Think it was a mistake the USAF put it against the F-15E . It should have replaced the production of the F-16C.
Would Foxhunter not fit on a F-15?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: By the Sea
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shyte out of Her Majesty's Hong Kong Crown Colony!
Would Foxhunter not fit on a F-15?
Too late but the F-16XL would have a made the basis of a superb interceptor – apart from the toy Radar on the front of a F-16.
Otherwise lots of fuel and performance – only trading sustained turn rate.
Think it was a mistake the USAF put it against the F-15E . It should have replaced the production of the F-16C.
Too late but the F-16XL would have a made the basis of a superb interceptor – apart from the toy Radar on the front of a F-16.
Otherwise lots of fuel and performance – only trading sustained turn rate.
Think it was a mistake the USAF put it against the F-15E . It should have replaced the production of the F-16C.
One party that was keen on F-14s was the Royal Navy who wanted a small purchase of them to satisfy maritime air defence.
A non-American substitute for the Tornado ADV that was put forward was the then under development French Avion de Combat Futur (ACF). The French proposed that the aircraft would meet the defence needs of both Air Forces with the French purchasing about 50 Tornado IDS to replace their Mirage IVs. However the ACF was cancelled shortly after the idea was put forward.
A non-American substitute for the Tornado ADV that was put forward was the then under development French Avion de Combat Futur (ACF). The French proposed that the aircraft would meet the defence needs of both Air Forces with the French purchasing about 50 Tornado IDS to replace their Mirage IVs. However the ACF was cancelled shortly after the idea was put forward.
