RAF F-14A Tomcat?
Thread Starter
RAF F-14A Tomcat?
Since today is Tomcat birthday
How close were we to getting them....
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-...at-never-were/
Cheers
How close were we to getting them....
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-...at-never-were/
Cheers
Very interesting jet.
Automatic wing sweep.
Centre fuselage barrel that was deliberately designed act like a lifting body.
All of which made it a great close in dogfighter, but with long range - perfect fleet defence asset.
But by all accounts - a maintenance nightmare...
Automatic wing sweep.
Centre fuselage barrel that was deliberately designed act like a lifting body.
All of which made it a great close in dogfighter, but with long range - perfect fleet defence asset.
But by all accounts - a maintenance nightmare...
I was intrigued by the comment from a Mirage pilot, when asked how it performs against an F-14.
He replied that with the 14's auto wing sweep, he could tell at a glance what the 14's speed was, and could fight accordingly.
He replied that with the 14's auto wing sweep, he could tell at a glance what the 14's speed was, and could fight accordingly.
When 101 Sqn did the first Tiger Trail to bring some jets back from the USA, the Americans were astonished to learn that these were ex-boneyard F-4Js rather than F-14As.....
But 74 were very fond of their 'Js!!
But 74 were very fond of their 'Js!!
I seem to remember someone who was involved with the evaluations said it was too big for anything we planned and the maintenance costs were unbelievable
Great aeroplane, especially the big-engined ones (B and D models). No twin-stickers (like the Buccaneer) and some significant handling characteristics with asymmetric power due to the lateral spacing between the engines. A very low approach speed for such a large aircraft (around 125 KIAS from memory) with direct lift control also. One of the all-time great iconic fighters.
A friend of mine who flew the F3 and later became a test pilot at Warton once said "The Tornado F3 is to fighter aircraft what the Austin Allegro was to Formula 1 motor racing". I don't think anyone around at the time disagreed with him ....
Actually, the F14A which we are talking about here had the troublesome TF30 engines (apart from the last few delivered). The thrust to weight ratio on these was about the same, if not marginally worse, than the F3. They were prone to compressor stalls, blade failures and the famous flat spin of Top Gun fame (some 1/3rd of accidents were attributed to that engine). It was only after they became F14A+ and then the F14B, with the GE F110 engines did the airframe become really dogfight capable able to hold its own with more agile aircraft. By the time it became the F14D Super Tomcat or “Bombcat” it was way superior to the F3, but I would say that the F3 was superior to the F14A on paper when it was selected in the last 1970s.
Further, the AWG 9 RADAR was really just a “blue water” RADAR with a very wide doppler notch compared to more modern affairs - the F3’s AI24 FOXHUNTER by the early/mid 90s had far superior overland performance and integration of JTIDS L16 on the RADAR and Plan displays. I flew with many F14 pilots and worked with a similar number of RIOs who explained this (sadly I just missed the final F14 exchange as the buggers were promoting me (no place for second!)).
There were features that both aircraft had that the other didn’t, but that is not for here.
As for a comparison of the F14A engine to the F14A+, F14B and F14D engine. The same improvement could have been achieved by replacing RB199 with EJ200 for the Tornado F3 (which was planned under Tornado 2000 but was shelved through fear of Eurofighter being cancelled).
Further, the AWG 9 RADAR was really just a “blue water” RADAR with a very wide doppler notch compared to more modern affairs - the F3’s AI24 FOXHUNTER by the early/mid 90s had far superior overland performance and integration of JTIDS L16 on the RADAR and Plan displays. I flew with many F14 pilots and worked with a similar number of RIOs who explained this (sadly I just missed the final F14 exchange as the buggers were promoting me (no place for second!)).
There were features that both aircraft had that the other didn’t, but that is not for here.
As for a comparison of the F14A engine to the F14A+, F14B and F14D engine. The same improvement could have been achieved by replacing RB199 with EJ200 for the Tornado F3 (which was planned under Tornado 2000 but was shelved through fear of Eurofighter being cancelled).
PS. I should add that Tornado F3 was the product of RAF Air Staff Requirement 395 (ASR 395) that dates back to the early 1970s to look for an interceptor to replace English Electric Lightning and Phantom FGR2. ASR 395 was for a Mach 2 interceptor capable of chasing down and shooting down long range bombers in the Iceland-Faroes Gap. The contract was awarded in 1976 for BAe to build 3x Air Defence Variant (ADV) Tornados. The F14A first flew in 1970 and was with the USN from 1974.
At the time for ASR 395 there were 4 options on the table:
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
At the time for ASR 395 there were 4 options on the table:
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
At the time for ASR 395 there were 4 options on the table:
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
1. F14A with a questionable set of engines and massive expense - which offered not much better performance than the Phantoms in service but was certainly a favourite at the time.
2. F15A with a really poor RADAR but seemed to have great performance - first flight 1972 - it broke eight time-to-climb world records between 16 January and 1 February 1975. But without the RADAR it was seen more as a long range Lightning than what ASR 395 was aiming for.
3. F16A was designed as a single-engine IR-missile equipped day fighter initially. First flight 1974. Deemed unsuitable for ASR 395.
4. Tornado ADV - the winner, which BAe made fit the entirety of ASR 395 and would keep the British aircraft industry in business.
I understand that F14A and Tornado ADV was a really close run thing too.
I think the fly away price of the F-14 was about twice the price of the F3, which also had the British industrial benefit as well, so although technically they were close, financially it was only ever going to go one way. So the answer to the OP's question would be 'not very'
"I feel then need, the need for tea..."
"Lad, your ego is cashing cheques you body can't cash"
Tea gets spilled on controller: "Bums, I want bums!!"
-- Ill show myself out
"Lad, your ego is cashing cheques you body can't cash"
Tea gets spilled on controller: "Bums, I want bums!!"
-- Ill show myself out
Actually, the F14A which we are talking about here had the troublesome TF30 engines (apart from the last few delivered). The thrust to weight ratio on these was about the same, if not marginally worse, than the F3. They were prone to compressor stalls, blade failures and the famous flat spin of Top Gun fame (some 1/3rd of accidents were attributed to that engine). It was only after they became F14A+ and then the F14B, with the GE F110 engines did the airframe become really dogfight capable able to hold its own with more agile aircraft. By the time it became the F14D Super Tomcat or “Bombcat” it was way superior to the F3, but I would say that the F3 was superior to the F14A on paper when it was selected in the last 1970s.
Actually, the F14A which we are talking about here had the troublesome TF30 engines (apart from the last few delivered). The thrust to weight ratio on these was about the same, if not marginally worse, than the F3. They were prone to compressor stalls, blade failures and the famous flat spin of Top Gun fame (some 1/3rd of accidents were attributed to that engine). It was only after they became F14A+ and then the F14B, with the GE F110 engines did the airframe become really dogfight capable able to hold its own with more agile aircraft. By the time it became the F14D Super Tomcat or “Bombcat” it was way superior to the F3, but I would say that the F3 was superior to the F14A on paper when it was selected in the last 1970s.
Further, the AWG 9 RADAR was really just a “blue water” RADAR with a very wide doppler notch compared to more modern affairs - the F3’s AI24 FOXHUNTER by the early/mid 90s had far superior overland performance and integration of JTIDS L16 on the RADAR and Plan displays. I flew with many F14 pilots and worked with a similar number of RIOs who explained this (sadly I just missed the final F14 exchange as the buggers were promoting me (no place for second!)).
There were features that both aircraft had that the other didn’t, but that is not for here.
As for a comparison of the F14A engine to the F14A+, F14B and F14D engine. The same improvement could have been achieved by replacing RB199 with EJ200 for the Tornado F3 (which was planned under Tornado 2000 but was shelved through fear of Eurofighter being cancelled).
Further, the AWG 9 RADAR was really just a “blue water” RADAR with a very wide doppler notch compared to more modern affairs - the F3’s AI24 FOXHUNTER by the early/mid 90s had far superior overland performance and integration of JTIDS L16 on the RADAR and Plan displays. I flew with many F14 pilots and worked with a similar number of RIOs who explained this (sadly I just missed the final F14 exchange as the buggers were promoting me (no place for second!)).
There were features that both aircraft had that the other didn’t, but that is not for here.
As for a comparison of the F14A engine to the F14A+, F14B and F14D engine. The same improvement could have been achieved by replacing RB199 with EJ200 for the Tornado F3 (which was planned under Tornado 2000 but was shelved through fear of Eurofighter being cancelled).
This was an MoD funded project and not only did it demonstrate the thrust increase, it was also aimed at life cycle and reliability improvements.
Would the F3 have really been able to utilise the significant EJ200 thrust increase from a structural perspective ?
It came a bit late but the two seat F-15 with E model strengthening and conformal tanks and vastly improved radar would have fitted the bill nicely.
Was the Tornado F3 intended to fully replace the Phantom?
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)
Was the Tornado F3 intended to fully replace the Phantom?
The last 4 Sqns at Wattisham and Wildenrath soldiered on until options for change – didn’t seem like they were on the card to get replaced by the F3?
The F3 was at its best over the North sea – harder to see it with RAFG – was there a plan to field a smaller fighter for Germany (or just keep the Phantoms going?)