AUKUS
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From: South Pole
My understanding is that the internal configuration of the LHD’s is strongly biased towards supporting the amphibious operations and would need extensive modifications to support F-35B’s - much larger aviation fuel storage, weapons storage and lifts, strengthening & heat proofing the main deck, etc. It’s so extensive that it would almost certainly be cheaper to build another hull that is designed for fixed wing aviation and leave the 2 LHD’s with full amphibious capabilities.
Also, the F-35B has significantly less range than the other models so, it would have to be provided with tanker support to be able to conduct operations at a range that doesn’t put the ship into range of enemy forces - these ships have limited defensive capabilities. Overall, it would tie up a lot of resources which would be better utilised by sending in RAAF missile trucks (Super Hornets & P-8’s supported by F-35’s). The Ghost Bat will also be a cost effective force multiplier.
Also, the F-35B has significantly less range than the other models so, it would have to be provided with tanker support to be able to conduct operations at a range that doesn’t put the ship into range of enemy forces - these ships have limited defensive capabilities. Overall, it would tie up a lot of resources which would be better utilised by sending in RAAF missile trucks (Super Hornets & P-8’s supported by F-35’s). The Ghost Bat will also be a cost effective force multiplier.
Last edited by Going Boeing; 1st May 2023 at 22:10.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
I have finally got out of teaching (on Australian naval ship design!) and had time to read the ANAO report on the Hunter Class frigate. A 🧵of few highlights and thoughts 1/…
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...460766721.html
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...460766721.html
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,618
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From: aus
I have finally got out of teaching (on Australian naval ship design!) and had time to read the ANAO report on the Hunter Class frigate. A 🧵of few highlights and thoughts 1/…
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...460766721.html
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...460766721.html
God Damn that was brutal, hunter class is dead I think. My money the Naval ship building will kill hunter and we will go either off the shelf with the Fremm / Constellation (copy and paste the constellation) or something in F100 / F5000 for a commonality with the Hobart Class AWD
Last edited by rattman; 10th May 2023 at 10:11.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: South Pole
It’s a very damming report but the development of the Hunter class is now so advanced that I can’t see it being abandoned for another option. Due to the necessity of getting the Anzac’s replacements built as quickly as possible, Hunter construction will have to continue but the number may be reduced due to cost.
The Type 26 design has a very quiet propulsion system which is a big driver of the high acquisition cost. This is why the Royal Navy is limiting the Type 26 to 8 ships and building 5 much cheaper Type 31’s (General Purpose frigates) to complete the replacement of their Type 23’s. This low noise level will make the Hunter class a superb ASW frigate (with substantial AAW capability) but also, the large hull gives a lot of flexibility for future growth or subsequent use for other roles. BAES has proposed an Air Warfare Destroyer variant with as many as 128 missile launchers - a very capable platform. The savings in support and logistics of having all the Tier 1 warships based on the same hull and propulsion system will have significant savings in support and logistics with improved availability.
The selection of this design was a cluster f**k but where we are now means that we have to proceed as fast as possible and make the most out of what looks like a very good design. The largest amount of the re-design work to integrate the CEAFAR 2 radar, SAAB 9LV & AEGIS combat system is very advanced and this configuration would also be used in subsequent versions.
The Type 26 design has a very quiet propulsion system which is a big driver of the high acquisition cost. This is why the Royal Navy is limiting the Type 26 to 8 ships and building 5 much cheaper Type 31’s (General Purpose frigates) to complete the replacement of their Type 23’s. This low noise level will make the Hunter class a superb ASW frigate (with substantial AAW capability) but also, the large hull gives a lot of flexibility for future growth or subsequent use for other roles. BAES has proposed an Air Warfare Destroyer variant with as many as 128 missile launchers - a very capable platform. The savings in support and logistics of having all the Tier 1 warships based on the same hull and propulsion system will have significant savings in support and logistics with improved availability.
The selection of this design was a cluster f**k but where we are now means that we have to proceed as fast as possible and make the most out of what looks like a very good design. The largest amount of the re-design work to integrate the CEAFAR 2 radar, SAAB 9LV & AEGIS combat system is very advanced and this configuration would also be used in subsequent versions.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
https://www.defensenews.com/congress...-to-australia/
Pentagon seeks authority to transfer nuclear submarines to Australia
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Department of Defense asked Congress to authorize the transfer of nuclear-powered submarines to Australia as part of the trilateral AUKUS agreement with the U.K.
Three legislative proposals, submitted on May 2 and first posted online Tuesday, would greenlight the sale of two Virginia-class submarines to Australia, permit the training of Australian nationals for submarine work and allow Canberra to invest in the U.S. submarine industrial base.
Rep. Joe Courtney of Connecticut, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee’s sea power panel, praised the proposals in a statement to Defense News, saying “I look forward to working with all my colleagues in Congress to fulfill these goals.”
“The Department of Defense’s legislative proposals are the latest example of President [Joe] Biden’s commitment to fulfilling the AUKUS agreement,” said Courtney. “Importantly, the proposals spell out a clear path forward to facilitate the transfer of Virginia-class submarines to Australia while ensuring we have the necessary authorities to accept the Australian Government’s investments to enhance our submarine industrial base capacity and provide training for Australian personnel.”
AUKUS stipulates that Australia will buy at least three and as many as five Virginia-class submarines in the 2030s as part of phase two of the agreement, giving Congress more than a decade to authorize the sale. This year’s proposal, which the Pentagon hopes will become part of the fiscal 2024 National Defense Authorization Act, asks that Congress approve just two of those submarines “without a deadline to consummate the transfers and without specifying the specific vessels to be transferred.”
The proposal argues that this “small amount of flexibility is necessary” since the transfers depend on Australian readiness to operate the submarines, which will involve developing Australia’s submarine industrial base through training and appropriate shipyard infrastructure.
To that end, a second legislative proposal would authorize U.S. defense service exports directly to Australia’s private sector in order to train its own submarine workers.
“This development must begin as soon as possible for Australia to become ready to own and safely operate these submarines in a manner that both maintains the highest non-proliferation standards and strengthens the global non-proliferation regime,” the Pentagon argues in the proposal.
Finally, the Pentagon is also asking Congress for permission to accept Australian payments to bolster the U.S. submarine industrial base. Australia has offered to make an undisclosed sum of investments in the U.S. submarine industrial base as part of AUKUS…….
Pentagon seeks authority to transfer nuclear submarines to Australia
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Department of Defense asked Congress to authorize the transfer of nuclear-powered submarines to Australia as part of the trilateral AUKUS agreement with the U.K.
Three legislative proposals, submitted on May 2 and first posted online Tuesday, would greenlight the sale of two Virginia-class submarines to Australia, permit the training of Australian nationals for submarine work and allow Canberra to invest in the U.S. submarine industrial base.
Rep. Joe Courtney of Connecticut, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee’s sea power panel, praised the proposals in a statement to Defense News, saying “I look forward to working with all my colleagues in Congress to fulfill these goals.”
“The Department of Defense’s legislative proposals are the latest example of President [Joe] Biden’s commitment to fulfilling the AUKUS agreement,” said Courtney. “Importantly, the proposals spell out a clear path forward to facilitate the transfer of Virginia-class submarines to Australia while ensuring we have the necessary authorities to accept the Australian Government’s investments to enhance our submarine industrial base capacity and provide training for Australian personnel.”
AUKUS stipulates that Australia will buy at least three and as many as five Virginia-class submarines in the 2030s as part of phase two of the agreement, giving Congress more than a decade to authorize the sale. This year’s proposal, which the Pentagon hopes will become part of the fiscal 2024 National Defense Authorization Act, asks that Congress approve just two of those submarines “without a deadline to consummate the transfers and without specifying the specific vessels to be transferred.”
The proposal argues that this “small amount of flexibility is necessary” since the transfers depend on Australian readiness to operate the submarines, which will involve developing Australia’s submarine industrial base through training and appropriate shipyard infrastructure.
To that end, a second legislative proposal would authorize U.S. defense service exports directly to Australia’s private sector in order to train its own submarine workers.
“This development must begin as soon as possible for Australia to become ready to own and safely operate these submarines in a manner that both maintains the highest non-proliferation standards and strengthens the global non-proliferation regime,” the Pentagon argues in the proposal.
Finally, the Pentagon is also asking Congress for permission to accept Australian payments to bolster the U.S. submarine industrial base. Australia has offered to make an undisclosed sum of investments in the U.S. submarine industrial base as part of AUKUS…….
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
Rep. Joe Courtney of Connecticut, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee’s sea power panel, praised the proposals in a statement to Defense News, saying “I look forward to working with all my colleagues in Congress to fulfill these goals.”
Now there's a big surprise..............
"U.S. Navy submarines are built by General Dynamics' Electric Boat Division (GD/EB) of Groton, CT, and Quonset Point, RI, and Huntington Ingalls Industries' Newport News Shipbuilding (HII/NNS), of Newport News, VA."
Now there's a big surprise..............
"U.S. Navy submarines are built by General Dynamics' Electric Boat Division (GD/EB) of Groton, CT, and Quonset Point, RI, and Huntington Ingalls Industries' Newport News Shipbuilding (HII/NNS), of Newport News, VA."
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: South Pole
There’s some discussion in this paper (from page 14 onwards) about the effect of the RAN acquiring 3-5 Virginia’s.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32418
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32418
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
There’s some discussion in this paper (from page 14 onwards) about the effect of the RAN acquiring 3-5 Virginia’s.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32418
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32418
That's a well argued paper with lots of info and a reasoned discussion of both sides of the argument from a US view - thanks!!
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
Hudson institute did a panel on AUKUS, Panel was Former prime mininister Scott Morrision and Boris Johnson and former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
https://youtu.be/I2WuyL5xp5g
https://youtu.be/I2WuyL5xp5g
"Simply the Best!"
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: South Pole
The following is from a well informed source on another forum - I didn’t expect the third boat to be a new build.
”Australian SSN Update:
Of the 3 submarines to be transferred from the US from 2032.
1st and 2nd will have at least 20 years remaining service life after transfer and will be transferred from the USN fleet.
Vessels to be transferred is under negotiation.
(As the Virginias have a 33 year service life, that means the transferred subs will have to have entered service from 2019 or later. So will be a Virginia III or IV.)
3rd Sub will not be transferred from USN but will be a new build straight from the shipyard. As the USN has transitioned to Block V production, Australia would have to specifically request an earlier Block if they did not want to take a Block V.
Source: Vice Admiral Mead
Senate Estimates 31/05/2023
Transcript not yet available on Senate Website.”
”Australian SSN Update:
Of the 3 submarines to be transferred from the US from 2032.
1st and 2nd will have at least 20 years remaining service life after transfer and will be transferred from the USN fleet.
Vessels to be transferred is under negotiation.
(As the Virginias have a 33 year service life, that means the transferred subs will have to have entered service from 2019 or later. So will be a Virginia III or IV.)
3rd Sub will not be transferred from USN but will be a new build straight from the shipyard. As the USN has transitioned to Block V production, Australia would have to specifically request an earlier Block if they did not want to take a Block V.
Source: Vice Admiral Mead
Senate Estimates 31/05/2023
Transcript not yet available on Senate Website.”
Joined: Dec 2017
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From: australia
https://www.aph.gov.au/News_and_Even.../video/1220083
above statement made, starting time stamp 11:18
above statement made, starting time stamp 11:18
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Australia
Rex Patrick, a former Senator (South Australia) and former submariner, is not keen on getting 2 second hand Virginias:
February 2011 is a time many in the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) would certainly prefer to forget. Within the month, the Defence Minister Stephen Smith had announced a number of trouble-plagued military landing craft would be disposed of and a review would be conducted into Support Ship Repair and Management Practices. Four months later Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Russ Crane, was gone.
On February 3, 2011, the biggest storm to have ever hit Queensland crossed the Australian coastline and carved a swath of destruction across the state. The storm displaced 10,000 people and caused $3.5 billion in damage. And the Navy was unable to respond with any amphibious ships to help Queenslanders.
On September 26, 2010, the Defence Minister had been advised that two former US Navy ships, HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla, were in what was described as an ‘operational pause’. By December the decision was made that Manoora would be decommissioned, although that news never made it to the Minister until January 28, 2011, when a tropical depression was forming off Queensland. The Minister was also advised that Kanimbla was to be unavailable to the RAN for 18 months.
That left HMAS Tobruk, a 30 year old ship, as the standby ship. On February 28, the Navy advised the Minister it was on 48 hours’ notice to go to sea. By February 2, with Yasi now a category 5 cyclone, Tobruk entered dock for emergence repairs. It left the dock two days later but was unfit to sail for any of the Yasi response.
The Navy had failed Australians."...
AUKUS Fissile or Fizzer?
"Former submariner Rex Patrick looks under the hood of the second-hand Virginia-class nuclear submarines to see what Australia has bought. Even AUKUS fans might not like what they see.February 2011 is a time many in the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) would certainly prefer to forget. Within the month, the Defence Minister Stephen Smith had announced a number of trouble-plagued military landing craft would be disposed of and a review would be conducted into Support Ship Repair and Management Practices. Four months later Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Russ Crane, was gone.
On February 3, 2011, the biggest storm to have ever hit Queensland crossed the Australian coastline and carved a swath of destruction across the state. The storm displaced 10,000 people and caused $3.5 billion in damage. And the Navy was unable to respond with any amphibious ships to help Queenslanders.
On September 26, 2010, the Defence Minister had been advised that two former US Navy ships, HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla, were in what was described as an ‘operational pause’. By December the decision was made that Manoora would be decommissioned, although that news never made it to the Minister until January 28, 2011, when a tropical depression was forming off Queensland. The Minister was also advised that Kanimbla was to be unavailable to the RAN for 18 months.
That left HMAS Tobruk, a 30 year old ship, as the standby ship. On February 28, the Navy advised the Minister it was on 48 hours’ notice to go to sea. By February 2, with Yasi now a category 5 cyclone, Tobruk entered dock for emergence repairs. It left the dock two days later but was unfit to sail for any of the Yasi response.
The Navy had failed Australians."...
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 205
From: aus
https://www.aph.gov.au/News_and_Even.../video/1220083
above statement made, starting time stamp 11:18
above statement made, starting time stamp 11:18
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 639
Likes: 102
From: australia