Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

A Failure of Values

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

A Failure of Values

Old 4th Dec 2021, 14:56
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wherever it is this month
Posts: 1,666
Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
I am happy to move on, but have one itch to scratch.

What is an "implicit thought"?
It's not jargon; as I said I'm not a woke-ist and have no time for the tortured language so common in these matters. I was simply using the word 'implicit' in its common dictionary-defined form: "implied, though not plainly expressed". Similarly "implicit criticism", "implicit support", "implicit endorsement", "implicit task", etc etc.
Easy Street is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2021, 15:00
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by beardy View Post
​​​​​​I took your advice and read what was written, he didn't say "rape within in the military" perhaps he should have, if that is what he meant, but he didn't.
Is it not presumptuous and patronising to assume that easy street is both old and male?
It’s not a presumption, I know Easy Street is both old (relatively) and male.
Foghorn Leghorn is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2021, 16:12
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 2,191
Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
It's not jargon; as I said I'm not a woke-ist and have no time for the tortured language so common in these matters. I was simply using the word 'implicit' in its common dictionary-defined form: "implied, though not plainly expressed". Similarly "implicit criticism", "implicit support", "implicit endorsement", "implicit task", etc etc.
That doesn't work. Criticism, support, endorsement, task are all in the public domain and are observable, discernible.
If one attempts to attribute implicit thought to someone, you are if fact saying "I know what he thinks subconsciously".

That is how the thought police work.



langleybaston is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2021, 17:00
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
That doesn't work. Criticism, support, endorsement, task are all in the public domain and are observable, discernible.
If one attempts to attribute implicit thought to someone, you are if fact saying "I know what he thinks subconsciously".

That is how the thought police work.
But by your observable actions and statements are you known, From this people will infer you thought processes. That is normal human behaviour. If your actions or statements are abhorrent to people, they will infer that your opinions and thoughts on the matter are equally abhorrent. Otherwise why would you say or do it?
Ninthace is online now  
Old 4th Dec 2021, 17:49
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 2,191
One possible reason these days is called trolling I believe.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2021, 21:29
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
One possible reason these days is called trolling I believe.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
Ninthace is online now  
Old 5th Dec 2021, 11:56
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 2,191
As I was also giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2021, 17:03
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
As I was also giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
There is nothing like the cut and thrust of witty repartee, and that was nothing like it!
Ninthace is online now  
Old 29th Apr 2022, 06:48
  #89 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 12,643
From Politico London Playbook. Disregard the headline about the army, the report covers cases in the RAF as well.

ABUSE IN THE ARMY: The MoD faces questions today after a shocking report from the Economist’s 1843 magazine on sexual harassment and assault in the armed forces and how much of it still goes unreported and unpunished. Read the year-long investigation here.

https://www.economist.com/interactiv...ish-army-abuse

“The family secret”: how rape is hushed up in Britain’s armed forces
ORAC is online now  
Old 29th Apr 2022, 12:12
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 988
Utterly disgraceful story.

No doubt some old hands will be along to report it didn't happen in their day cus they were too busy handing out soap dicks or some other BS.
downsizer is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2022, 12:33
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 73
Posts: 17,272
The UK is not alone with criticism of being easy on Sex Offenders.

https://www.armed-services.senate.go...s_06-04-13.pdf

During my tenure as a US DOD Criminal Investigator....I know for a fact that every allegation of Rape or Sexual Assault was thoroughly investigated and given a high priority with very close monitoring by our Organization's HQ.

The system saw the Investigative Report be submitted to the Officer having responsibility for initiating UCMJ prosecutions for action.

We made no recommendations for an outcome but merely did the Investigation using every means required to determine the fact situation and collect testimony and evidence.

Four of my cases stand out in my memory....one a Rape/Murder of a Female Prostitute, a second case of the Rape of a Female Prostitute, a Rape of a Female Service Member by a fellow Male Service Member, and another Rape of a Female Service Member by a Male Superior Ranking Service Member.

The first case resulted in the Conviction of the Killer who was sentenced to Eighteen Years in a Non-US Prison, the next case was settled out of Court by an offer to drop the charges if a large cash payment was made to settle local charges but Administrative Action against the Servicemember, the third was a case of withdrawn consent following the consensual intercourse by a Married Woman having remorse over a drunken weekend, and the final went to General Court-Martial where the Defendant was found "Not Guilty" (also the result of a drunken weekend but only reported three days after the assault and no forensic evidence could be obtained.

So a short recap....the Rape/Murder was a very sad case and was a very brutal murder but we worked hard to solve the case and did so....gaining a confession from the Killer and collected all manner of physical evidence.
The Service Member was Dishonorably Discharged upon his Conviction in the Non-US Court and was sentenced to eighteen years in the Non-US Prison.

The next case involved a young girl who had been "sold" to a Service Member as being a "Three Hole Girl" and upon forcing himself upon her against her Will....was charged with Rape by the US Authorities. The local Mayor approached the US Government with an offer to drop the Criminal Charges in exchange for 20,000 USD. The Senior US Commander and Defendant agreed to the Deal and I was required to orchestrate the exchange. Knowing the truth of the matter....the Mayor was going to keep the vast majority of the money and the victim would get a few hundred dollars at best and still be held in her sad circumstances....I and my local Investigator Partner arranged the deal where by upon his taking possession of the Victim, I would get the Paperwork confirming the Deal signed by the Mayor....I would tell the Mayor I had to take the Paperwork back to my Boss for his approval to release the money....and instead what we did was give the money directly to the Victim and my Partner drove to a great distance away for her to join family where she would be safe. The Mayor was not amused which was most heart warming knowing we helped the young girl and there was no recourse by the Mayor or Pimps.

The third case involved a Female Service Member who had engaged in a rowdy weekend of drunken partying with other members of her Unit where she engaged in Consensual Sex with at least two different Male Members of her Unit. She then filed a complaint of Rape and specified a particular staircase in a local hotel where said Rape took place. In not time we tracked down everyone that was involved, identified the two Males who had sexual relations with her....with both freely admitting that fact and who signed sworn statements to that effect. There was no physical evidence to be found. Intereviews of several Female Members of the Unit surfaced information that raised the fact the Victim had been voicing concerns about having used no contraceptive measures and feared the adverse effects a pregnancy would have upon. her marriage. In my civilian Police Department we would have "Unfounded" that complaint but the my DOD Organization forwarded that Report as a Rape Case where some Administrative Punishment was handed down.

The final case, was really sad. Young Female Service Member went out on the town with fellow Unit Members, lots of drinking, with one Male superior treating her to drinks all night....then forcing himself upon her, throwing her out of his car onto the side of the road. Unfortunately, she did not report the Rape until three days later when her Command observed her having a psychological breakdown in Ranks and she was counseled as to the cause of her behavior when she told of the assault. The Case went to General Court-Martial despite my telling the JAG Officer we did not have a Case due to the lack of witnesses, no forensic evidence despite a Ten Man Search team who walked many miles of highway looking for her discarded underwear. The Defendant was acqutted of all Charges to include the simple "Fraternization" Offense. What I saw the Defense Counsel do to that Young Woman in Court that day amounted to a Virtual Rape as his cross examination went way over the line. I know she felt betrayed by the system.....because she was. She was to be returned to the same unit....and have to serve under the same guy that had Raped her. I was able to convince the Base Commander, a Two Star General, she should be granted a transfer to some place away from our current location and he agreed and made that happen. I drove her to the airport which was a four hour drive.....and helped her as best I could. Had it been my Daughter I would have liked for someone to do that for her.

Four good examples of what we are talking about when we talk of "Rape" in the Military.

Each time....in my part of the US DOD....we placed a high priority on the cases and worked hard to fully document what transpired....not just to convict but to clear those of false allegations.
The good results of those Investigations did not always get used by Command to take genuinely appropriate actions....and that is my concern.

Command Influence, JAG Officers yielding to Command Influence or trying to play Perry Mason, Commanders who mis-use their position, all play a role in the Sexual Assault "problem" in the Military.....exactly as it does in the Civilian World.
SASless is online now  
Old 29th Apr 2022, 13:44
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,247
Since the Met Police - responsible for protecting people and investigating crimes against them - failed miserably to investigate an alleged rape in 2004 by a taxi driver, who then went on to repeat his crimes many times until he was finally caught in 2008 despite being interviewed by police in 2007 - is it such a surprise that such offences go either unreported or un-investigated in the military?

John Worboys in case you don't remember his string of offences.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2022, 15:49
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,271
I am waiting for someone to advocate for the castration (chemical or physical) of all males in the military. Rape cases would plummet!

Hat, coat, door.
albatross is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.