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RAF Seeks Zero Emissions Trainer

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RAF Seeks Zero Emissions Trainer

Old 9th Jul 2021, 19:27
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
RAF Seeks Zero Emissions Trainer
Of course this can't really be a 'zero emissions trainer' unless its 'fuel' is genuinely net-zero and all the tasks involved in building it and its components (eg mining the lithium for the battery) are also genuinely net-zero. 'Zero carbon emission at the point of use' is a cop-out. It'll be an 'elsewhere emissions trainer.'

Even after that, they've got a mountain to climb. I look forward to the (genuinely) zero emissions F-35, Chinook and heavy transport aircraft..
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 19:58
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
Not sure about ZERO emissions but got to be close. Nothing like a bungy launch

We had one at school that we used to shoot across the playing field, I don't think we ever got it that high though, staff probably never had the bottle. We rarely took the spoilers off tbh.

I heard tales of one being used for an aerial streak from Bicester using an airtow. I cannot swear to the authenticity of the tale as I wasn't there.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 21:01
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Originally Posted by nonsense View Post
Conservation of energy; you don't create heat, just shuffle it around.
Kinda like climate change then?
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 21:05
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
This line in the Market Report struck me as curious - There is no intention to launch a formal DASA competition as a result of this Market Exploration.

So, is the RAF going to field a zero emissions trainer or not?
Yes, but only on Twitter.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 23:08
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
We had one at school that we used to shoot across the playing field, I don't think we ever got it that high though, staff probably never had the bottle. We rarely took the spoilers off tbh.

I heard tales of one being used for an aerial streak from Bicester using an airtow. I cannot swear to the authenticity of the tale as I wasn't there.
My launch crew had Shredded Wheat for breakfast

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Old 10th Jul 2021, 03:51
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Originally Posted by unmanned_droid View Post
Kinda like climate change then?
If we were a closed system, sure. But we’re not. The sun pours energy into the earth’s atmosphere.

Now you could make the argument that the total amount of energy in the solar system is constant, but that’s not real helpful to the things living on earth.
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 04:34
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Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 04:41
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?
Not tired, despairing……..
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 08:44
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?
It's cool that you think the MOD buys the "very best" training vehicle, not the cheapest....

​​​​
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 12:03
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Originally Posted by artyhug View Post
Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a musing, but the argument that it isn’t cheap or easy and therefore shouldn’t be considered is mystifying to me.

Without aiming to beat expensive and difficult challenges little if anything would have been achieved by the human race.

No agricultural revolution, no industrial revolution, no technological revolution.

it confuses me even more when it is wielded by allegedly ‘experienced’ individuals. The self same individuals who have spent a lifetime utilising the success stories from others struggles to overcome difficult and expensive problems.

Naturally there are legion failures to accompany every success but without trying we will never succeed at anything.
I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 12:10
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Originally Posted by Blackfriar View Post
I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.
One way to look at it. There is no point in defending your country if you lose your planet.
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 16:38
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Originally Posted by Blackfriar View Post
I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.
Now that discussion/argument I have no issue with and indeed wholeheartedly encourage.

The other however is just pigheaded inertia.
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 17:41
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I think this initiative should be looked at from a glass half full perspective, At present it would seem to me the bean counters are doing everything in their power to reduce the amount of time studes actually spend in an flying airplane. I would suggest that we are at or at least very close to a practical electric 2 seat trainer with the performance to meet the primary and basic flying curriculum.

I think everyone should be banging the drum on the message that instead of spending money on simulators the services should be spending money on electric airplanes. Throw in the usual virtue signaling buzz words like enabling zero emission technologies, encouraging climate friendly enterprises, funding technology incubators, public private partnership to a green future; and future proofing air capabilities; and the mandarins will eat it up.

The end result is instead of more and more time in some "ground based learning device "the future Air Force guys and gals get more actual airtime. What's not to like about that ?
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 20:19
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Aura Integral E could meet the spec (and I am also interested in it for the civilian UPRT task), but will be very dependent on development of the right battery technology. If Elon Musk can mass produce robust, rapid charging batteries with energy density of at least 400 Wh per Kg in the next few years we could be there.

https://insideevs.com/news/440727/el...cells-not-far/
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Old 11th Jul 2021, 00:02
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Originally Posted by V-Jet View Post
Should the Geneva Convention be adjusted to limit environmental emissions in war?
That is the first truely rational comment so far in this topic!
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Old 11th Jul 2021, 05:36
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Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth View Post
AEF flying is already basically non existent so no real change there.
I beg to differ. Before CV19 suspended flying (because of the risk of in cockpit transfer of CV), some 16000 cadets had been flown in that FY. The aspiration is/was to do more.

Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth View Post
The UAS' will shift, why do they need to fly as much as they do? These days they are more direct recruitment than air mindedness, the Studes are all set on an RAF career and know they'll be in sims, so don't expect actual flying.
How much flying do you think each student gets? And if you know the rest of your "flying" career will largely be in the sim, wouldn't you make the most of what you can, when you can? And how is the RAF going to recruit people who want to fly aircraft, if they keep saying most of your flying will be in the sim. Be interesting to see what happens to retention with that cunning plan.



Can you imagine the risk assessment for doing that now?? How many different JSPs/MARDs would you have to read? With the risk aversion pervading the military, who would own the risk? ODH? SDH? God?
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Old 11th Jul 2021, 09:31
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
I think this initiative should be looked at from a glass half full perspective, At present it would seem to me the bean counters are doing everything in their power to reduce the amount of time studes actually spend in an flying airplane. I would suggest that we are at or at least very close to a practical electric 2 seat trainer with the performance to meet the primary and basic flying curriculum.

I think everyone should be banging the drum on the message that instead of spending money on simulators the services should be spending money on electric airplanes. Throw in the usual virtue signaling buzz words like enabling zero emission technologies, encouraging climate friendly enterprises, funding technology incubators, public private partnership to a green future; and future proofing air capabilities; and the mandarins will eat it up.

The end result is instead of more and more time in some "ground based learning device "the future Air Force guys and gals get more actual airtime. What's not to like about that ?
Starting everyone off on winch-launched gliders would be a useful start. Electric or hydrogen/fuel cell powered if you want to be uber-green, loads of launches, circuits and landings would be good for every pilot. 30 winch launches in 2 and half days with three solos was a fantastic grounding even if every flight was 3 mins or less.
Making a decision and picking a field was certainly good training for Sully on the Hudson. RAF trainee pilots currently kicking their heels waiting for a training slot would be better employed learning in a VGS, then training cadets instead of shuffling paper or whatever they are doing.
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Old 11th Jul 2021, 10:26
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Originally Posted by phylosocopter View Post
That is the first truely rational comment so far in this topic!
Seriously , I wonder what some people are smoking.
Exactly what do you think the armed forces are for ?
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Old 11th Jul 2021, 11:09
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Might as well stand into wind as p#ss, at least you will get a warm fuzzy feeling!

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Old 12th Jul 2021, 14:03
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I can't quite work out if everyone is being deliberately obtuse and making a joke of it, or just haven't though it through.

Battery powered light aircraft are coming and they are going to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and cheaper to maintain than existing platforms.
It's not the "zero emission" bit that's important -it's the through life cost.
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