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Looks like some Grob woes..

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Looks like some Grob woes..

Old 1st Mar 2021, 15:22
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Looks like some Grob woes..

See

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...021_0057_E.pdf
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 09:51
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Unnecessary risk ?

...
Interesting time line for an Emergency Airworthiness Directive?

EAD issued on 26th Feb

EAD read and posted by learned PPRuNe citizen - 1st March

EAD effective date 3rd March

This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to failure or detachment of a control surface, possibly resulting in loss of control of the aeroplane.
Inspections 1) Before next flight after the effective date of this AD,
If the problem is bad enough to justify an EAD, what's wrong with 'Inspect before next flight' ?

Effectively, up to five days of unnecessary risk.

Would make for an interesting accident investigation.

LFH
...
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 10:21
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It may be down to transmission times, some countries operating UK registered aircraft may not recieve Emergency AD's at the same time, so still could be operating them after the date issued if it was earlier, that would mean unbeknown they would be operating without a valid ARC and hence and Airworthiness Certificate, that then has knock on effect on Aircraft insurance and pilots flying unairworthy aircraft, so a little leeway is given so hopefully everyone is in the know to prevent the above happening.

That's my thoughts on the possible scenario.

It was issued on the 26th but my email system that gets all AD's from my service provider arrived on the 1st.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 16:05
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On a regular AD you get two weeks warning, on an Emergency AD that warning time is shorter, but I have seen different variations of how short it is. As NutLoose mentioned, the knock on effect of having an effective date concurrent with the publishing date can be significant.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 18:40
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...
Thank you chaps. Understand absolutely. I have no knowledge of the minefield of aviation administrative reality.

Would I authorise a Grob flight, or fly my own Grob (without complying with the EAD) after receiving/reading the EAD, but before it became effective ?

No Way Hosay - 'Corst I ain't gonna get struck by lightning, innit ?

Cheers, LFH
...
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 13:13
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Just for fun, let's consider the following scenario:
- Grob owner/operator reads the EAD but notices that is is not yet effective.
- Grob owner/operator then authorises a flight/goes flying without carrrying out the necessary steps to comply with the EAD first. (Definitively not one of us...)
- Flight control bracket detaches, stick actuator loses control of said Grob, Grob experiences a rapid unscheduled disassembly upon reaching ground level (let's assume no loss of life or serious injuries to keep this thought experiment pleasant). There is a significant bit of damage though, including to innocent property.
- Is it still possible to claim that your aircraft was fine/airworthy/not your fault etc. when the property owner sues Grob owner/operator for damages?

Answers on a postcard....
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 14:27
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It's all a long while ago, but manufacturers and operators used to do anything they could to avoid actually grounding a fleet. So in the RAF there were often instructions to "be complied with before next After Flight servicing" (as opposed to "next Before Flight..."), so technically it was never grounded. Of course, no sane person would ever fly a sortie then do the inspection but it meant that the top brass did not have to be told!
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 17:06
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
Just for fun, let's consider the following scenario:
- Grob owner/operator reads the EAD but notices that is is not yet effective.
- Grob owner/operator then authorises a flight/goes flying without carrrying out the necessary steps to comply with the EAD first. (Definitively not one of us...)
- Flight control bracket detaches, stick actuator loses control of said Grob, Grob experiences a rapid unscheduled disassembly upon reaching ground level (let's assume no loss of life or serious injuries to keep this thought experiment pleasant). There is a significant bit of damage though, including to innocent property.
- Is it still possible to claim that your aircraft was fine/airworthy/not your fault etc. when the property owner sues Grob owner/operator for damages?

Answers on a postcard....

I would think would have to prove he read the AD, he could deny he had seen it, even then it may be it was been ferried for maintenance to get the inspection carried out, you can and do get aircraft stuck at odd places where no maintenance is possible, in that case I would want to carry out a as far as possible detailed inspection prior to flight.

One I remember was the aerobar crankshafts where the mix had been altered resulting in several cavities in the material and a few props shed. The AD in that case said the engine had to come out wherever it was, we had one picking up pax here when the pilot got a call to tell him it was grounded and it sat for about 6 weeks engineless while it was sorted.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 18:05
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Originally Posted by possel View Post
Of course, no sane person would ever fly a sortie then do the inspection but it meant that the top brass did not have to be told!
The Mull of Kintyre Chinook board listed a lot of insane people then!
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 13:09
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Originally Posted by dervish View Post
The Mull of Kintyre Chinook board listed a lot of insane people then!
Indeed Dervish, and yet still to be declared as such. It was not always so though, a not dissimilar issue affected the Handley Page Hastings in the 60's. An elevator hinge outrigger bracket detached due failure of the securing bolts. All 41 on board perished. The entire RAF Fleet was immediately grounded, and remained so until inspection and repairs were conducted and airworthiness restored.

Little Baldon air crash - Wikipedia
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 14:37
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
I would think would have to prove he read the AD, he could deny he had seen it, even then it may be it was been ferried for maintenance to get the inspection carried out, you can and do get aircraft stuck at odd places where no maintenance is possible, in that case I would want to carry out a as far as possible detailed inspection prior to flight.
Good point, if you state that you never read it you'll be able to talk your way out of many issues. But what I omitted from my thought experiment was the purpose of the flight. The game is called mitigation of course, you're trying to mitigate the risks as much as possible. If you need to, of course you can ferry the aircraft to a location that can do the inspection. With an EAD for flight control problems, you wouldn't authorise a flight with a significant aerobatic element, with high-speed manuevres and such, but a gentle bimble down to your maintenance provider on a calm day after a good pre-flight is possible.
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 18:22
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I wonder if this AD has anything to do with the Tutor which diverted into brize just over a month ago with some form of rudder issue. The aircraft is still parked at Brize minus rudder.
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 20:09
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Originally Posted by WE992 View Post
I wonder if this AD has anything to do with the Tutor which diverted into brize just over a month ago with some form of rudder issue. The aircraft is still parked at Brize minus rudder.
That would be a correct wondering.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 21:07
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Originally Posted by WE992 View Post
I wonder if this AD has anything to do with the Tutor which diverted into brize just over a month ago with some form of rudder issue. The aircraft is still parked at Brize minus rudder.
Finally, someone who refers to the aircraft correctly. The Tutor may be having difficulties, but right now the other two types of Grob in RAF service are pretty much okay!
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 23:39
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If one wants to be picky it’s actually a civilian registered Grob G115, and as the civilian AD refers to it as that, so regardless of what the RAF have decided to slap on it as their Moniker, a Grob G115 it remains and rightly so as the RAF are just one user in a long list, in fact it was called the Heron when in Royal Navy service.
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 08:41
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
If one wants to be picky itís actually a civilian registered Grob G115, and as the civilian AD refers to it as that, so regardless of what the RAF have decided to slap on it as their Moniker, a Grob G115 it remains and rightly so as the RAF are just one user in a long list, in fact it was called the Heron when in Royal Navy service.
Being super-picky, wasn't the Heron a different version of 115? Never went anywhere near one, but I want to say fixed pitch prop or something?
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 08:43
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There are several versions listed in the TCDS, can't find the names 'Tutor' or 'Heron' in it though: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...2-20122011.pdf
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 10:03
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Originally Posted by pba_target View Post
Being super-picky, wasn't the Heron a different version of 115? Never went anywhere near one, but I want to say fixed pitch prop or something?
Heron was the D2 the Tutor the E model, for the purpose of this AD it is only the E and EG model variants affected.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 20:46
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Heron was the D2 the Tutor the E model, for the purpose of this AD it is only the E and EG model variants affected.
Indeed. The other models (including the base G115, A, B, etc as generally horrible as they are) use a different construction of control surface, in particular around the bracket mounts. The different construction doesn't require that nuts are torqued (iaw the manual) to an extent that may, on odd occasions, pull the bolt head through the surface...
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 16:53
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Heard the RAFAC won't see Tutor flying until autumn due to this
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