New Flying Badges
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Who actually needs to have their ego polished by the award of a badge?
KBW, I've no idea why this issue has suddenly flared up again, but you seem to suggest that RAF CC are soon to be awarded 'our' flying badge, by which I assume you mean the WSOp one. If that is so I can understand your concern and empathise with you. At no time have I called for that. My only demand has been that RAF CC be recognised as aircrew, ie:-
As you so rightly point out, in the RAF that requires the award of an appropriate flying badge, which to date they have yet to receive. Coming from an era of Navigators, Air Engineers, Signallers, Load Masters, etc, the solution could have been a winged CC flying badge worn on the left breast. That the RAF has seen fit to replace them with a one size fits all (OK, some trades no longer exist of course) is yet another corner it has boxed itself into and needs to find its own way out of. That isn't my concern, which is to see them recognised as aircrew and not as so much role equipment!
The explanation that they are not aircrew because they are not needed on Voyager if no pax are carried is specious. The same goes for any aircraft, civil or military. Civil positioning flights only require a flight deck crew, the CC they leave behind are however still aircrew!
Persons authorized to conduct duties concerned with: operating or flying the Air System or; with the management of Passengers or cargo when in flight
The explanation that they are not aircrew because they are not needed on Voyager if no pax are carried is specious. The same goes for any aircraft, civil or military. Civil positioning flights only require a flight deck crew, the CC they leave behind are however still aircrew!
I can scotch that rumour right now. There are no plans to award the WSO/WSOp Flying Badge to Cabin Crew. There is, however, a discussion ongoing whether they should join the Airborne Specialist cadre - if they did they would forfeit their Cabin Crew qualification badge. However, nothing is decided. Currently Airborne Specialists are drawn from Air Ops, TG7, TG1, Int and TG11 branches and trades. There is also consideration ongoing whether Flight Test Engineers should join them too - they complete the ~1 year long ETPS course and run airborne trials and operate airborne trials equipment.
Hopefully, this info puts this one to bed?
Hopefully, this info puts this one to bed?
Thanks for the update LJ, I'm sure that it will come as a relief to WSOp aircrew. For my part, the flying badge selected to show RAF CC to be aircrew is immaterial. All that is important is that they be recognised as RAF aircrew and are awarded an appropriate badge to confirm that. In my view that would be a major contribution to RAF Flight Safety and should happen without delay.
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Ripped off WSO/WSOp Flying badge
I can scotch that rumour right now. There are no plans to award the WSO/WSOp Flying Badge to Cabin Crew. There is, however, a discussion ongoing whether they should join the Airborne Specialist cadre - if they did they would forfeit their Cabin Crew qualification badge. However, nothing is decided. Currently Airborne Specialists are drawn from Air Ops, TG7, TG1, Int and TG11 branches and trades. There is also consideration ongoing whether Flight Test Engineers should join them too - they complete the ~1 year long ETPS course and run airborne trials and operate airborne trials equipment.
Hopefully, this info puts this one to bed?
Hopefully, this info puts this one to bed?
A fair point,except the Airborne specialist badge IS the WSO/WSOp Flying badge- its blatantly been ripped off to look like it, and had the crown removed. You might as well go full tilt and leave the crown in place in order to devalue the WSO/WSOp Flying badge even more.
What next? dont bother giving WSOp's a job evaluation like the rest of the entire military, and leave them with a lower trade score than RAFP/Regt/Movs? oh wait... that happenned already.
If CC can wear the awarded Flying Badge (approved by branch sponsor of course) then will the CC trade sponsor allow MSO/Purser aircrew to wear their CC wings without completing any CC pre requiiste courses prior to Voyager academy? I think not.
Well played CC.
If youre going to roll in test engineers to that cadre- then why on earth would you omit GE's ? they complete pre -requisite courses, hold BCR's... and perform an airborne role on numerous AM platforms. But are they getting conisdered? of course not.
A fair point,except the Airborne specialist badge IS the WSO/WSOp Flying badge- its blatantly been ripped off to look like it, and had the crown removed. You might as well go full tilt and leave the crown in place in order to devalue the WSO/WSOp Flying badge even more.
What next? dont bother giving WSOp's a job evaluation like the rest of the entire military, and leave them with a lower trade score than RAFP/Regt/Movs? oh wait... that happenned already.
If CC can wear the awarded Flying Badge (approved by branch sponsor of course) then will the CC trade sponsor allow MSO/Purser aircrew to wear their CC wings without completing any CC pre requiiste courses prior to Voyager academy? I think not.
Well played CC.
If youre going to roll in test engineers to that cadre- then why on earth would you omit GE's ? they complete pre -requisite courses, hold BCR's... and perform an airborne role on numerous AM platforms. But are they getting conisdered? of course not.
What next? dont bother giving WSOp's a job evaluation like the rest of the entire military, and leave them with a lower trade score than RAFP/Regt/Movs? oh wait... that happenned already.
If CC can wear the awarded Flying Badge (approved by branch sponsor of course) then will the CC trade sponsor allow MSO/Purser aircrew to wear their CC wings without completing any CC pre requiiste courses prior to Voyager academy? I think not.
Well played CC.
If youre going to roll in test engineers to that cadre- then why on earth would you omit GE's ? they complete pre -requisite courses, hold BCR's... and perform an airborne role on numerous AM platforms. But are they getting conisdered? of course not.
As for the Flight Test Engineers (FTEs), I believe all are currently Engineering Officers, bar one that is a WSO (with their own flying badge), They complete the entire 50 week Empire Test Pilots’ School (ETPS) syllabus. They run airborne trials and test plans, operate trials equipment on board the aircraft, they are jointly responsible for the safety of the aircraft with the Test Pilot and pre-flight are responsible for constructing the test plan. That is certainly comparable to an OCU for the rest. That is what is being considered (rightly so, in my opinion).
On the CC badge - it is one or the other. If the CCs do become Airborne Specialists they will forfeit their CC badges. Now as a WSOp, if you want to trade in your WSOp Flying Badge for a CC one then go ahead - you can also go and serve tea and stickies in the Mess during your ground tour too.
The Airborne Specialist to WSO/WSOp to Pilot Flying Badges makes a natural progression. From now on the ground branches and trades employed on flying duties have a flying badge without a Crown, the WSO/WSOp (as Officer Aircrew and Non-Commissioned Officers (NCA)) get a flying badge with a Crown, then the Pilots (who can these days only be the Captain of the aircraft) get a second wing to their flying badge with Crown. It’s all very neat and obvious when you look at all 3 side by side.
Finally, not sure about your “RAFP/Regt/Movs” quote. They are all in the same pay-supplement as NCA - Pay Supplement 2. The NCA were placed in Supplement 2 because their previous Job Eval (JE) was too out of date and there wasn’t time to do a full one for PAY16. Pay Supp 2 or 3 was probably where they should have placed according to most - so really the difference is about a couple of quid a day. But don’t forget that none of the “RAFP/Regt/Movs” get at least £8/day extra RRP(F) (flying pay for the old and bold) nor do they get access to a specialist pay spine like PAS. Also, the “RAFP/Regt/Movs” will take at least 12 years of service to reach OR6 Sgt. Finally, a Herculean JE is just about to wind up soon with huge amounts of involvement by the NCA. So if the NCA score the same this time around, then maybe the evaluation was correct all along? If not, they will go to Pay Supp 3.
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So all of us Crusties with an N, AE, LM, E, QM, S etc brevet who cannot wear the WSO/WSOp brevet for whatever reason will, to the uninitiated and to all intents and purposes. wear the same badge as an 'Airborne Specialist', rather than Qualified Aircrew?
On the E-3, the GEs get (or at least did when I was there) an aircraft safety course which qualifies them as Supernumerary Crew. This means that they do not require the same amount of briefing, and probably more important, crew escorts when flying with a crew on to a deployment. They can also operate the galley and the basic equipment such as light switches and of course, they know what to do and where to go in an emergency.
They are all entitled to wear the WSO/WSOp Flying Badge should they wish. All legacy GD(Air) flying badge holders are. Also, the FC, AT and IA Flying Badges all look like the legacy badges anyway, so no difference really.
Lima Juliet, as you seem to be both knowledgeable and prepared to share your knowledge (a rare and admirable trait if I may say so!) could you please dot some i's for me? If, as you suggest, there is a possible move to grant RAF Cabin Crew an Airborne Specialist Flying Badge, would that mean that they are then acknowledged by the RAF as Aircrew? If the answer is self evident then I apologise but I find nothing in this maelstrom to be self evident. The badge is irrelevant in my view, what is relevant is that RAF Cabin Crew are Aircrew and are recognised as such, especially by other crew members and by their passengers.
Can we simply take it as read that all that are opposed to such a proposition remain as adamant as ever? I would just like to know what the RAF's intentions are in regard to recognising their cabin crew as aircrew.
Can we simply take it as read that all that are opposed to such a proposition remain as adamant as ever? I would just like to know what the RAF's intentions are in regard to recognising their cabin crew as aircrew.
Lima Juliet, as you seem to be both knowledgeable and prepared to share your knowledge (a rare and admirable trait if I may say so!) could you please dot some i's for me? If, as you suggest, there is a possible move to grant RAF Cabin Crew an Airborne Specialist Flying Badge, would that mean that they are then acknowledged by the RAF as Aircrew? If the answer is self evident then I apologise but I find nothing in this maelstrom to be self evident. The badge is irrelevant in my view, what is relevant is that RAF Cabin Crew are Aircrew and are recognised as such, especially by other crew members and by their passengers.
Can we simply take it as read that all that are opposed to such a proposition remain as adamant as ever? I would just like to know what the RAF's intentions are in regard to recognising their cabin crew as aircrew.
Can we simply take it as read that all that are opposed to such a proposition remain as adamant as ever? I would just like to know what the RAF's intentions are in regard to recognising their cabin crew as aircrew.
Prior to 1 Apr 20, then Airborne Fighter Controller (FCs), Airborne Technicians (ATs) and Airborne Image Analysts (IAs) were also similar to the Cabin Crew but with different FC, AT and IA flying badges. They again are all drawn from a Ground Branch or Trade but employed in the live operation of the aircraft systems. This is also true of Mission Intelligence Coordinators (MICs) that operate the Reaper, and its SAR/GMTI in a similar way to the IAs on Sentinel, along with the Pilot and WSO or WSOp operating the rest of the aircraft and its systems. So on 1 Apr 20 the FCs, ATs, IAs and MICs were also given ‘Honorary Aircrew’ status, like the PJIs, and were collectively termed ‘Airborne Specialists’ to keep things tidy. Unfortunately, to keep it really tidy the Flight Test Engineers (FTEs) and Cabin Crew should have been included to keep everything neat.
So here are the revised flying badges, with their titles, in one shot. Flying Branch Officer Aircrew and Non-Commissioned Aircrew on the left, the only personnel permanently employed as aviators, and the ‘Honorary Aircrew’ on the right that are drawn from the Ground Branches and Trades.
Thanks for coming back with that info, LJ, I really appreciate it! So they remain a ground trade, even though we are told that their duties are becoming ever more airborne? That is an anomaly that one hopes will resolve itself eventually, but in the meantime honorary aircrew with a flying badge is a great improvement on Mess Steward with a CC ground trade badge. I hope that this plan succeeds, but it won't be an easy sell as witnessed by the hostility expressed on this thread and the 'Non-Traditional Aircrew' one :-
'Non-Traditional' Aircrew
So I can only wish it well and urge all who might be as disturbed as I by the opposition to any notion that RAF cabin crew be seen as anything other than airborne waiters to support this initiative. Feeding and watering is the least of the duties of any CC, civil or military. Their role is to safeguard the lives of their passengers, and they are trained and practiced to do just that. They need to be accepted as an integral part of an aircraft crew to fulfil that role. They need to be accepted as aircrew!
Honorary they may be, but Aircrew they already most definitely are!
'Non-Traditional' Aircrew
So I can only wish it well and urge all who might be as disturbed as I by the opposition to any notion that RAF cabin crew be seen as anything other than airborne waiters to support this initiative. Feeding and watering is the least of the duties of any CC, civil or military. Their role is to safeguard the lives of their passengers, and they are trained and practiced to do just that. They need to be accepted as an integral part of an aircraft crew to fulfil that role. They need to be accepted as aircrew!
Honorary they may be, but Aircrew they already most definitely are!
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Thanks for coming back with that info, LJ, I really appreciate it! So they remain a ground trade, even though we are told that their duties are becoming ever more airborne? That is an anomaly that one hopes will resolve itself eventually, but in the meantime honorary aircrew with a flying badge is a great improvement on Mess Steward with a CC ground trade badge. I hope that this plan succeeds, but it won't be an easy sell as witnessed by the hostility expressed on this thread and the 'Non-Traditional Aircrew' one :-
'Non-Traditional' Aircrew
So I can only wish it well and urge all who might be as disturbed as I by the opposition to any notion that RAF cabin crew be seen as anything other than airborne waiters to support this initiative. Feeding and watering is the least of the duties of any CC, civil or military. Their role is to safeguard the lives of their passengers, and they are trained and practiced to do just that. They need to be accepted as an integral part of an aircraft crew to fulfil that role. They need to be accepted as aircrew!
Honorary they may be, but Aircrew they already most definitely are!
'Non-Traditional' Aircrew
So I can only wish it well and urge all who might be as disturbed as I by the opposition to any notion that RAF cabin crew be seen as anything other than airborne waiters to support this initiative. Feeding and watering is the least of the duties of any CC, civil or military. Their role is to safeguard the lives of their passengers, and they are trained and practiced to do just that. They need to be accepted as an integral part of an aircraft crew to fulfil that role. They need to be accepted as aircrew!
Honorary they may be, but Aircrew they already most definitely are!
just let it go and accept your opinion is not based on fact, common sense or rational thought.
cabin crew are a role fit, end of discussion.
Thread Starter
Just to close off Chug’s query. They are Trade Group (TG) 19 amongst the Ground Trades and they are entitled “TG19 Air & Ground Stewards”. The deal is that after joining they will all do an OCU and complete at least 1x flying tour, then they may well be employed on Mobile Catering Support Units (MCSUs) or work in the Messes or in other Catering roles. So the Cabin Crew role is very much one of many roles within their TG that they will be employed in during their career. When employed as Cabin Crew they do get access to enhanced medical screening, avmed trg, flying kit and also appear in the auth sheets as part of the Crew of the aircraft (only used on Voyager and BAe 146). So they are treated as part of the crew for passenger carrying roles on the aircraft - the terminology of Aircrew in the RAF is nuanced slightly in that only Officer Aircrew and Non-Commissioned Aircrew (NCA) of the Flying Branch are de facto Aircrew within the RAF. Which is why the term ‘Airborne Specialist’ has been chosen and probably should apply to them too (in my opinion). It also important to note that NCA are not a TG like the Other Rank Trades. They are a unique cadre in themselves and there legacy in regulations and KRs/QRs goes back to 1939 and the ill-fated 1947 Aircrew Scheme (of which only Master Aircrew rank badges survive!). They have unique terms of service and pay structures too.
You might like this little video on Cabin Crew conducting their role - they seem justifiably proud of it too.
You might like this little video on Cabin Crew conducting their role - they seem justifiably proud of it too.
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Just to close off Chug’s query. They are Trade Group (TG) 19 amongst the Ground Trades and they are entitled “TG19 Air & Ground Stewards”. The deal is that after joining they will all do an OCU and complete at least 1x flying tour, then they may well be employed on Mobile Catering Support Units (MCSUs) or work in the Messes or in other Catering roles. So the Cabin Crew role is very much one of many roles within their TG that they will be employed in during their career. When employed as Cabin Crew they do get access to enhanced medical screening, avmed trg, flying kit and also appear in the auth sheets as part of the Crew of the aircraft (only used on Voyager and BAe 146). So they are treated as part of the crew for passenger carrying roles on the aircraft - the terminology of Aircrew in the RAF is nuanced slightly in that only Officer Aircrew and Non-Commissioned Aircrew (NCA) of the Flying Branch are de facto Aircrew within the RAF. Which is why the term ‘Airborne Specialist’ has been chosen and probably should apply to them too (in my opinion). It also important to note that NCA are not a TG like the Other Rank Trades. They are a unique cadre in themselves and there legacy in regulations and KRs/QRs goes back to 1939 and the ill-fated 1947 Aircrew Scheme (of which only Master Aircrew rank badges survive!). They have unique terms of service and pay structures too.
You might like this little video on Cabin Crew conducting their role - they seem justifiably proud of it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeKftrHUi8
You might like this little video on Cabin Crew conducting their role - they seem justifiably proud of it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeKftrHUi8
Im sure theyll be thrilled as a trade to lose one of the wings and lose their "CC" identifier to be replaced with an RAF Airborne Specilaist Flying Badge...
Mind you - at least that theyd be wearing the new aircrew Flying Badge in the correct place on their uniform then- instead of where their current Trade Badge should be worn (left arm), but isnt.
Before Chugalug spools up: This is not CC bashing- this is the steady demise of the aircrew Flying Badge and status in itself. As soon as you start handing them out to more and more trades who aren't aircrew (every trade in the Airborne specialist) and haven't attended OASC/IOT/NCAITC/CFS Fg Trg/ OCU's you immediately devalue the merit of the original Flying Badge. Removing the crown and pretending its not essentially the same Flying Badge is utterly ludircous.
How about you award the CC trade a Pilot's Flying badge with TWO wings, then just simply remove the Crown- it looks a LOT like the current trade badge doesnt it? but no. You and I both know the Pilots wouldnt have would they? and why should they. The Pilots Flying Badge would never be altered or handed to another trade for the very same reasons ive stated above.