Women pilots...?
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Women pilots...?
A question for all those fighter pilots out there...I am a young woman contemplating a career as a pilot after graduating from university. I'm used to Air Force life as I was brought up in that world, but I would like to hear some of the attitudes towards women fighter pilots from the "horses's mouths" so to speak. Is it harder to get in if you are a female? And how much stick can one expect to receive? I would be interested to hear your views...
As the RAF is an equal opportunities employer you'll be treated no differently to the men, except of course if you're good looking (a rare quality in WAFS) then you'll get a lot more sex than the chaps do. The powers that be would prefer you to be a minger though then there's less chance of you getting pregnant and being grounded after 5 minutes on the Sqn! :-)
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Gunray
I think specaircrew has completely summed up the sexist attitude that pervails in the Armed Forces and it's a good thing that the post came so early, it will certainly spark some comment.
Be under no illusion it will be far tougher for you to succeed whilst you've got to internally fight against some bigotted attitudes at the same time trying to do your own job. It wont be easy.
I am not a 'FJ' but have spent some time teaching men and women a similar trade in rotary, I have to say that my best ever student was a female and her achievement was due to ability, aptitude, intelligence and motivation. Added to that was a huge amount of hard work on her part to be better than anyone else irrespective of gender. In her favour was a system that didn't recognise her as a women but as an aviator, so she was better placed than you will be.
In my opinion there will always be a divisive problem when a lesser number of females have to work alongside more male collegues, particulary in the Armed Forces.
Best of luck, if you do it, go get it!
I think specaircrew has completely summed up the sexist attitude that pervails in the Armed Forces and it's a good thing that the post came so early, it will certainly spark some comment.
Be under no illusion it will be far tougher for you to succeed whilst you've got to internally fight against some bigotted attitudes at the same time trying to do your own job. It wont be easy.
I am not a 'FJ' but have spent some time teaching men and women a similar trade in rotary, I have to say that my best ever student was a female and her achievement was due to ability, aptitude, intelligence and motivation. Added to that was a huge amount of hard work on her part to be better than anyone else irrespective of gender. In her favour was a system that didn't recognise her as a women but as an aviator, so she was better placed than you will be.
In my opinion there will always be a divisive problem when a lesser number of females have to work alongside more male collegues, particulary in the Armed Forces.
Best of luck, if you do it, go get it!
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PC Tastic- don't bite!
I'm a bloke and I don't get any, so I suppose Specaircrew was correct in one of his 'points'. Perhaps its because I'm a minger?
Anyway, I've been involved in training FJ mates for a few years now, including about half a dozen females. I think if you have the ability, the willingness to succeed and be able to 'fit in', anyone can make it; regardless of gender. Ability being the most important. If you have been around RAF life for a while you'll have been introduced to some banter. Give as much as you get and fitting-in shouldn't be much of a problem.
Sexual harassment is a different matter, but I aint gonna go there. This would be a tedious wind up if someone wants to get a non-PC reaction. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Health and Safety Regulations- Rules to be followed or Just For Guidance?'.
Yawn.....
Anyway, I've been involved in training FJ mates for a few years now, including about half a dozen females. I think if you have the ability, the willingness to succeed and be able to 'fit in', anyone can make it; regardless of gender. Ability being the most important. If you have been around RAF life for a while you'll have been introduced to some banter. Give as much as you get and fitting-in shouldn't be much of a problem.
Sexual harassment is a different matter, but I aint gonna go there. This would be a tedious wind up if someone wants to get a non-PC reaction. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Health and Safety Regulations- Rules to be followed or Just For Guidance?'.
Yawn.....
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Drop a line (e-mail) to McD, she is a moderator here on pprune.
She is American Airlines pilot AND a F-16 fighter pilot. A good person and will help you anyway she can.
She is American Airlines pilot AND a F-16 fighter pilot. A good person and will help you anyway she can.
Min Descent Ht,
A chap can only be a minger when he's sober, after four pints he has drunk himself good looking and after eight is Gods gift to women! Unless of course you're cursed with natural good looks like wot I am :-)
A chap can only be a minger when he's sober, after four pints he has drunk himself good looking and after eight is Gods gift to women! Unless of course you're cursed with natural good looks like wot I am :-)
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Never had the pleasure of flying on a fast jet sqn with female aircrew. However, I have flown with hundreds of air cadets and several dozen UAS studes (during Freshers' week and on sand-bag trips). At their young age the ability range is from "will never be able to fly anything as long as he/she has a hole in his/her ar$e" to "jeeeeeeeeeezuss matey - get your ass down to the recruiting shop as soon as you're old enough 'cos I want you in the RAF". The best half a dozen I've flown with (in my humble opinion) as far as natural ability is concerned have been ladies, but - overall and on average - there has probably been little or nothing to choose between the sexes as far as poling skills are concerned.
Now, I'm an old buggah, but I don't care if you are black, white, green, yellow, blue, male, female, both (or not sure), fat, thin, tall, short, ugly, good-looking, christian, buddhist, muslem, jewish, hindu, vegetarian or a bleedin' horse!! If you're good ---- welcome to my Air Force!!!!
Go for it and love it!! AND BANTER BACK !!!!!
Now, I'm an old buggah, but I don't care if you are black, white, green, yellow, blue, male, female, both (or not sure), fat, thin, tall, short, ugly, good-looking, christian, buddhist, muslem, jewish, hindu, vegetarian or a bleedin' horse!! If you're good ---- welcome to my Air Force!!!!
Go for it and love it!! AND BANTER BACK !!!!!
In many years of flying, I have taught a lot of pilots, both military and civilian, of every race, colour, creed and of both genders. I can truthfully say that every single stude has had the same treatment and level of instruction, ie the best that I could give.
I have to admit that at times it can be difficult, mostly if you suspect the stude is not trying as hard as he/she can but in the long term it makes no difference.
Regrets? Maybe with hindsight having put so much effort into training studes (when the RAF did train a lot of overseas pilots) who then turn on your own country in later years.
I have to admit that at times it can be difficult, mostly if you suspect the stude is not trying as hard as he/she can but in the long term it makes no difference.
Regrets? Maybe with hindsight having put so much effort into training studes (when the RAF did train a lot of overseas pilots) who then turn on your own country in later years.
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Like flygunz, I have taught quite a few females in the RW environment. Also like him, my best ever stude was a female - but then so was my worst!
Truly, the dinosaur attitudes are getting fewer and rarer. Anyway, aren't all studes worthless until they produce incontravertible evidence to the contrary?
Go for it - better than looking over your shoulder in 10 or 20 years asking 'what if?'
Truly, the dinosaur attitudes are getting fewer and rarer. Anyway, aren't all studes worthless until they produce incontravertible evidence to the contrary?
Go for it - better than looking over your shoulder in 10 or 20 years asking 'what if?'
My obsevations?
Say to UAS student (bloke) "That was an average trip"- he'll think "Good enough. Now I'm off to the pub, then a curry, then try to be sober enough to survive tomorrow"
Say to UAS student (lady) "That was an average trip" - she'll think "Can do bŁoody better than that!" - and will then practise checks, etc with the others of her coven - and do better the next day.
Have taught several ladies on the '10 - the only one who wasn't pretty darn good had been 'taught' beforehand by someone who didn't like female pilots. But then she was fine when given a chance!
If you try to play the role of the oldest swinger in town who still thinks he's 21 and takes it into his single brain-cell to dribble incoherently over every lady in the bar whilst boring them to tears, they'll always think you're a prat. Even if you think that they're 'mingers'..... Eh, SA???
Say to UAS student (bloke) "That was an average trip"- he'll think "Good enough. Now I'm off to the pub, then a curry, then try to be sober enough to survive tomorrow"
Say to UAS student (lady) "That was an average trip" - she'll think "Can do bŁoody better than that!" - and will then practise checks, etc with the others of her coven - and do better the next day.
Have taught several ladies on the '10 - the only one who wasn't pretty darn good had been 'taught' beforehand by someone who didn't like female pilots. But then she was fine when given a chance!
If you try to play the role of the oldest swinger in town who still thinks he's 21 and takes it into his single brain-cell to dribble incoherently over every lady in the bar whilst boring them to tears, they'll always think you're a prat. Even if you think that they're 'mingers'..... Eh, SA???
Last edited by BEagle; 13th Aug 2002 at 22:19.
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SA
Not very PC but after a 16 hour day, day into night TAC training this was just the sort of humour I needed to wind down with. Add to this the fact I almost woke the rest of the house up giggling I can only ask you entertain us with more of this in other threads.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Not very PC but after a 16 hour day, day into night TAC training this was just the sort of humour I needed to wind down with. Add to this the fact I almost woke the rest of the house up giggling I can only ask you entertain us with more of this in other threads.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Good to see so many replies to my question...must be a topic close to men's hearts! And no Just An Other Number, this is not a wind up, I do genuinely want to fly. BEagle your reply sounds just like something my father would say...have to say I agree with the quotes part, women won't settle for "average," or at least I won't. Some good advice in favour of female pilots, thanks for your views! Watch this space...
PS. Specaircrew - may have a few problems then...
PS. Specaircrew - may have a few problems then...
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I have trained a good few women on both UAS and Albert. As Wholi knows, my greatest success is a lady who I told would never fly as long as she possessed the proverbial hole in her a*se! She is now a respected pilot in the RAF, and takes great delight in reminding me of my (as she sees it) poor judgement at every opportunity! I continue to claim that it was my way of motivating her to greater efforts, of course.
I've seen good and bad students of both sexes and, notwithstanding BEag's point, I've seen plenty of women who will accept the 'OK' verdict and then proceed to drink the bar dry with the boys - or maybe that was just my influence? Most of those women I know who now fly with the RAF thoroughly enjoy the experience. There are neanderthals who do their best to spoil things, but I would expect any good pilot to be able to deal with idiots who disparage their abilities.
Gunray, I'd say give it a go. And when you've gotten fast jets out of your system, come and talk to us at Virgin!
I've seen good and bad students of both sexes and, notwithstanding BEag's point, I've seen plenty of women who will accept the 'OK' verdict and then proceed to drink the bar dry with the boys - or maybe that was just my influence? Most of those women I know who now fly with the RAF thoroughly enjoy the experience. There are neanderthals who do their best to spoil things, but I would expect any good pilot to be able to deal with idiots who disparage their abilities.
Gunray, I'd say give it a go. And when you've gotten fast jets out of your system, come and talk to us at Virgin!
Now now Beagle you haven't seen my twin brother in the Mess bar for ages, let alone being pestered by those naughty WAFs(after all they're not made of wood). Or are you just in a mood 'cos I wrote some 'reportees comments' on that check ride you did on me.............don't worry I always do that, pity there's not more space as you can have lots more fun on ACRs :-)
PS Gunray............Actually Beagle is old enough to be your Grandfather
PPS Always Broken...........Glad you're amused, couldn't resist it , especially as I knew it would excite those people that take life oh so seriously
PS Gunray............Actually Beagle is old enough to be your Grandfather
PPS Always Broken...........Glad you're amused, couldn't resist it , especially as I knew it would excite those people that take life oh so seriously
Last edited by Specaircrew; 14th Aug 2002 at 12:29.
No mood at all, chum. But the droning boredom that your twin brother inflicts on the ladies after his usual half pint is getting a bit passe....
I could mention a honey-trap which a certain Nimrod captain fell for at St Mawgan about a dozen years ago..... The UAS girlies had had enough of your twin brother and one of their number, who, shall we say, was less than choosy decided to teach him a lesson.......
Or the student who plied the 15 year old daughter of a senior officer with drink and then had his pleasure....
Gunray, do it, DO IT, DO IT!!!. There aren't many MCP dinosaurs left, thank heavens and you'll be treated without any prejudice.
PS - I don't mix work with PPRuNe play
I could mention a honey-trap which a certain Nimrod captain fell for at St Mawgan about a dozen years ago..... The UAS girlies had had enough of your twin brother and one of their number, who, shall we say, was less than choosy decided to teach him a lesson.......
Or the student who plied the 15 year old daughter of a senior officer with drink and then had his pleasure....
Gunray, do it, DO IT, DO IT!!!. There aren't many MCP dinosaurs left, thank heavens and you'll be treated without any prejudice.
PS - I don't mix work with PPRuNe play