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The F-35 thread, Mk II

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The F-35 thread, Mk II

Old 25th Jun 2021, 07:48
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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QSaid to be the cheapest option."
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 08:21
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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That got my attention as well. Wonder how much Eurofighters or Rafales have been?
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 15:44
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the swiss statement of price; as Finns are having the HX tender for up to 64 fastjets to replace aging F/A-18's and final offers are out, Lockheed Martin stated last month that their offer for Finland includes up to 64 F-35's for the 10bn limit (including weapons systems etc). In essence, you'll get a F35 with the same price as super hornet, Saab, Rafale, eurofighter et al. So with the swiss news it seems the F-35 prices are coming down. Someone somewhere wants to get them out of the factory.
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 16:01
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
Regarding the swiss statement of price; as Finns are having the HX tender for up to 64 fastjets to replace aging F/A-18's and final offers are out, Lockheed Martin stated last month that their offer for Finland includes up to 64 F-35's for the 10bn limit (including weapons systems etc). In essence, you'll get a F35 with the same price as super hornet, Saab, Rafale, eurofighter et al. So with the swiss news it seems the F-35 prices are coming down. Someone somewhere wants to get them out of the factory.
Hmmmmm.......

LM haven't done a search through their old Lockheed company archive's for a folder marked "Big brown envelope F-104 sales proceedures" have they...
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 16:46
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Ex-USAF Lockheed pilot upgrading from F-16 Production & Training pilot to F-35:


Lockheed Martin's First Female F-35 Production and Training Pilot Takes Flight (f35.com)
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 15:22
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Switzerland selects F-35

Swiss Select F-35 for Future Air Defense Requirements (f35.com)
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 15:36
  #367 (permalink)  
 
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36 birds... LM will be delighted, the Swiss taxpayer probably less so. This will most likley go to popular vote.
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 16:07
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
36 birds... LM will be delighted, the Swiss taxpayer probably less so. This will most likley go to popular vote.
Definitely a victory for the LM press machine. $2bn (sorry don't have a Euro symbol) cheaper over 30 years than the competition apparently - I guess if they don't fly them much it could be true...
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 16:48
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AFAIK their evaluation concluded that the F-35 was "far superior" to all other offers. That goes for the technical functionality and operational efficiency "for Swiss needs" as well.
Not related to LM in any way just watching the press conference on YouTube.
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 17:02
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Originally Posted by Jerry Atrick View Post
Definitely a victory for the LM press machine. $2bn (sorry don't have a Euro symbol) cheaper over 30 years than the competition apparently - I guess if they don't fly them much it could be true...
Thing is, if you decide that you need to operate a stealthy 5th gen strike fighter then it has to be F-35. Other 4/4.5 gen types may or may not be able to compete on cost, but if they can't compete in the air what's the point?
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 17:54
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
Thing is, if you decide that you need to operate a stealthy 5th gen strike fighter then it has to be F-35. Other 4/4.5 gen types may or may not be able to compete on cost, but if they can't compete in the air what's the point?
Question being what would be the mission of stealth fighters in Switzerland.

Definitely a victory for the LM press machine. $2bn (sorry don't have a Euro symbol) cheaper over 30 years than the competition apparently - I guess if they don't fly them much it could be true...
One of the stated advantage of the F-35 was the far superior - and cheaper - simulation environment. So yes, it would seem that those birds will see very little actual use (assuming they get past the popular vote).
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Old 30th Jun 2021, 18:51
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Question being what would be the mission of stealth fighters in Switzerland.
It does seem a very perplexing choice in that regard....

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Old 9th Jul 2021, 08:19
  #373 (permalink)  
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https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021...ability-cliff/

Watchdog group finds F-35 sustainment costs could be headed off affordability cliff

WASHINGTON — Under current estimates, the U.S. Air Force will reach a tipping point where projected F-35 sustainment costs become too expensive, forcing the service to either cut its planned buy of the Lockheed Martin-made jet or drastically reduce flying hours, the Government Accountability Office found in a new report.

As the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps’ F-35 operations reach their peak in 2036, it will be exponentially difficult for the services to afford sustaining the F-35 if the cost per tail remains at current estimates, the GAO said in a July 7 report. Cost per tail per year is the measurement the Pentagon uses to measure how much money it takes to sustain a single aircraft annually.

Specifically, the Defense Department will face a $6 billion gap in 2036 between the actual cost of sustaining the services’ F-35s and the cost the services can afford, the GAO said.

About $4.4 billion of that expense will be billed to the Air Force, which plans to buy 1,763 F-35A conventional takeoff and landing jets throughout the program of record.…..

The stakeholders of the F-35 program—which include the F-35 joint program office, the services and prime contractor Lockheed Martin — have “unique and differing perspectives on affordability,” which ultimately make it difficult to develop a shared plan for cutting sustainment costs, the GAO said.

For example, Air Force officials have noted that, even if it could somehow obtain all spare parts for its F-35 fleet for free, F-35 sustainment costs would still exceed affordability targets by 14 percent…..
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 09:38
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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This will most likely go to popular vote.
I've seen this said a few times, but as someone not familiar with the Swiss system can you explain why an F-35 purchase might go back to a vote while a Rafale/Eurofighter/Super Hornet purchase would (presumably) not? I thought the whole point of having the referendum before the selection was to avoid such an occurrence.

Question being what would be the mission of stealth fighters in Switzerland.
There is a misunderstanding of the Swiss requirement, with many (erroneously) assuming that it requires only a peacetime air policing platform. Switzerland underpins its neutrality with a strong armed forces (the idea being that no invader would want to go to the trouble as it would be too much like hard work), and as such its requirement is for a full-spectrum multirole combat aircraft (remember, unlike the earlier Gripen E selection which was just to replace some F-5s, the F-35 selection is to replace all F-5s and F/A-18s). Now, whether they actually need this in the real-world may well be up for discussion, but then how many other countries that buy the latest military hardware are ever likely to actually use it?
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 10:54
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Interesting. The only published roles of the Swiss Air Force are airspace protection, air transport and airborne intelligence gathering - and I am unaware of any weapon purchases or training beyond those roles.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 15:11
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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The Air2030 requirements are here https://www.vbs.admin.ch/de/verteidi...030-d.pdf.html

and include: ...in the event of an armed attack, combat aircraft in parallel to meet the air defense task for aerial reconnaissance and for combat ground targets can be deployed from the air.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 17:41
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Doable doesn't mean it's optimum or desirable ..................


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Old 9th Jul 2021, 19:05
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
I've seen this said a few times, but as someone not familiar with the Swiss system can you explain why an F-35 purchase might go back to a vote while a Rafale/Eurofighter/Super Hornet purchase would (presumably) not? I thought the whole point of having the referendum before the selection was to avoid such an occurrence.
Apart from the Referendum - which can be requested by 50'000 voters - there's the political instrument of the Volks-Initiative: 100'000 voters can request a voting on changing the constitution.
Obviously our Swiss constitution is not the ideal place to put a ban on a certain airplane (F-35, Rafale, Eurofighter ... you name it), but technically it would be feasible. All it needs is a group or a party collecting signatures of 100'000 registered voters, proposing a change of the consititution and reqesting to vote about it.

The Swiss referendum on new fighter planes did end up with 50.1 % "yes" only (check "Eidgenössische Abstimmung über die Beschaffung neuer Kampfflugzeuge" on Wikipedia for detailed results - I'm not allowed to post a direct link). Would it have been known that the Swiss government would be choosing the F-35, I'm pretty sure the referendum would have ended with a solid "no". Thus it's probable - but not sure - that somoene will start collecting signatures for a "Volks-Initiative" aimed at changing our constitution, specifically excluding the F-35 from being acquired. It's pretty sure that no one would bother doing this if the Rafale or the Eurofighter would have benn chosen.

To make things more complicated, such a change of our constitution has to be accepted not only by the majority of the voters (as with the Referndum), but by
a) the majority of the voters and
b) the majority of the Cantons

Looking at the results of the initial Referendum (see link above) it's quite probable that the majority of the voters would vote against the F-35, but possible that the majority of Cantons will vote "pro F-35".

I hope this clarifies the issue, at least as far it is possible at the moment.

S
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Old 12th Jul 2021, 22:09
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Pentagon services face unaffordable F-35 operations and sustainment costs by 2036

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...-costs-by-2036

The 2020 JPO estimate of the F-35A sustainment cost per tail per year in steady state is USD7.8 million, up from the USD7.1 million cost estimate in 2018. The F-35A affordability constraint for sustainment cost per tail per year is USD4.1 million, representing a gap of USD3.7 million between projected cost and affordability constraint.
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Old 13th Jul 2021, 01:31
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
Thing is, if you decide that you need to operate a stealthy 5th gen strike fighter then it has to be F-35. Other 4/4.5 gen types may or may not be able to compete on cost, but if they can't compete in the air what's the point?
When the loss exchange ratio is 20:1, You would need a large fleet of 4/4.5gen.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/...-in-the-world/
Pilots have raved about the jet’s performance. In its first Red Flag, F-35s scored a 20-to-1 kill ratio against a simulated enemy. In another, it flew 16 simulated offensive counter air missions, eliminating 100 surface-to-air missile sites without losing a plane. That’s not just good performance—it’s unmatched performance.
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