Afghanistan and released American documents
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Your sentiments seem seriously at variance with the way the government policy is determined, in the UK, in Europe or in NATO.
Libya was by far the fastest growing economy in Africa and Syria was a functioning multi religious state when NATO, France and the UK decided that Qaddafi and Assad had to go and unleashed the killing. The result has been a series of catastrophes, one of which was the massive flight of refugees now stressing Europe.
Those decisions were not made with any perceptible moral compass. Demanding that the military execute the resultant immoral policies morally is at best self deluded, it is impossible.
Libya was by far the fastest growing economy in Africa and Syria was a functioning multi religious state when NATO, France and the UK decided that Qaddafi and Assad had to go and unleashed the killing. The result has been a series of catastrophes, one of which was the massive flight of refugees now stressing Europe.
Those decisions were not made with any perceptible moral compass. Demanding that the military execute the resultant immoral policies morally is at best self deluded, it is impossible.
The liberals will still praise Barack Obama as some kind of moral hero, when the evidence suggests otherwise. Good point.
We, and I say 'we' as an international alliance, need to step our game up. This isn't sustainable.
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RPAS are not autonomous, they have a crew of 3 who ALL make a decision on the engagement and whether it is legitimate. Then there is the video feed from said RPAS being beamed all around the world and is recorded on a plethora of hard drives and seen by literally hundreds, if not thousands of people LIVE.
The RPAS crew also have numerous comms systems that anyone who is on the system can use to speak DIRECTLY to the crew. This includes several 'adults' who can stop ANY engagement.
RPAS are WAY WAY less autonomous and WAY WAY more accountable than a Typhoon running in at 420 kts, pulling up, dropping a PWIV and being 10 miles away before impact....
“I think you should avoid lecturing someone like SASless on the ethics of warfare until you’ve actually ‘got some time in’ yourself.”
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
I would suggest unless you have done it....you do not qualify as possessing a truly informed opinion as you only theoretical concepts as a basis for your opinions.
You certainly are welcome to your opinion but please do accept there is a certain data set that only comes with direct exposure to the real in addition to theory.
If you have not bearded the Dragon in his Den.....then all you have is second hand accounts to discuss.
You certainly are welcome to your opinion but please do accept there is a certain data set that only comes with direct exposure to the real in addition to theory.
If you have not bearded the Dragon in his Den.....then all you have is second hand accounts to discuss.
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“I think you should avoid lecturing someone like SASless on the ethics of warfare until you’ve actually ‘got some time in’ yourself.”
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
Whilst morals appear to be an absolute, this is not the case, they are merely a case of latitude and longitude and social constructs.
Having had several conversations over the year with family, friends and academics (MA in Int'l Relations) it is immediately clear that when people talk of morals they actually mean ethics. The conversation normally resorts to "it should not be legal to kill someone" or "drones are just executing people" or "what gives you the right to be judge and jury" and so on....
Very rarely does it resort to morals i.e. How do I justify it in my own head.
Most people are happy with the inherent right to self-defence but are aggressively opposed to killing in war. This in my mind is because they have never actually been shot at and rarely understand the ethics of war as its easy when sitting with a coffee in a centrally heated house to judge and not appreciate the nuances of war.
I would never tell a woman about the experience or rights/wrongs on child birth....
Just my opinion
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"Drones" are WAY over-scrutinised than say, a Typhoon or F16, who has only himself 'in the loop' for an engagement.
RPAS are not autonomous, they have a crew of 3 who ALL make a decision on the engagement and whether it is legitimate. Then there is the video feed from said RPAS being beamed all around the world and is recorded on a plethora of hard drives and seen by literally hundreds, if not thousands of people LIVE.
The RPAS crew also have numerous comms systems that anyone who is on the system can use to speak DIRECTLY to the crew. This includes several 'adults' who can stop ANY engagement.
RPAS are WAY WAY less autonomous and WAY WAY more accountable than a Typhoon running in at 420 kts, pulling up, dropping a PWIV and being 10 miles away before impact....
RPAS are not autonomous, they have a crew of 3 who ALL make a decision on the engagement and whether it is legitimate. Then there is the video feed from said RPAS being beamed all around the world and is recorded on a plethora of hard drives and seen by literally hundreds, if not thousands of people LIVE.
The RPAS crew also have numerous comms systems that anyone who is on the system can use to speak DIRECTLY to the crew. This includes several 'adults' who can stop ANY engagement.
RPAS are WAY WAY less autonomous and WAY WAY more accountable than a Typhoon running in at 420 kts, pulling up, dropping a PWIV and being 10 miles away before impact....
"Drone" was quoted for a reason. In this context it was for a person who acts in a way that is the complete opposite to a thinker. That is not somebody I want serving in our nation's military - and thankfully the selection seems robust enough to prevent that, which is why we have the best in the world.
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“I think you should avoid lecturing someone like SASless on the ethics of warfare until you’ve actually ‘got some time in’ yourself.”
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
I have no moral objection to killing in self defence or in war, provided the right person/people are killed for the right reasons, within the rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict, to achieve the objectives of the mission, whilst using the minimum amount of force required.
Those individuals were a part of a team, they might be professionals on the other side, or they might be religious nuts - either way, they knew the risk of what they were doing and they accepted it.
The civilians caught in the crossfire of some mad man, who wants to kill everything until nothing's left, did not accept to be in that position. I therefore maintain my position that SASless' comments demonstrate a lack of compassion for the innocent.
Salute!
I will guarantee that we attack pilots where SAS flew and was wounded thought a lot about innocent folks close to the enemy. Our compasion prolly resiulted in more deaths by we "good" guys than necessary to protect the friendly folks.
I never saw or flew with any "mad man" that wanted to kill everything in close air support missions or SAR missions. But all here are free to believe what they wish.
In all fairness, my body count was prolly 200 or 300 poor Vee. Am I proud? Gotta be kidding me. Most were shooting at me. Most were shooting at friends of mine from U.S., Australia, Korea, South Vietnam and so forth.
As I stated earlier, I do not support military actions to either impose or attempt to "nation build" .
There are reasons to support some folks that can play a role in our national interests, but that is not for we grunts to decide. We just ride into the valley and do or die. If we do not agree and live long enuf, then we get out and then call our press conference.
Gums opines...
The civilians caught in the crossfire of some mad man, who wants to kill everything until nothing's left, did not accept to be in that position. I therefore maintain my position that SASless' comments demonstrate a lack of compassion for the innocent.
I never saw or flew with any "mad man" that wanted to kill everything in close air support missions or SAR missions. But all here are free to believe what they wish.
In all fairness, my body count was prolly 200 or 300 poor Vee. Am I proud? Gotta be kidding me. Most were shooting at me. Most were shooting at friends of mine from U.S., Australia, Korea, South Vietnam and so forth.
As I stated earlier, I do not support military actions to either impose or attempt to "nation build" .
There are reasons to support some folks that can play a role in our national interests, but that is not for we grunts to decide. We just ride into the valley and do or die. If we do not agree and live long enuf, then we get out and then call our press conference.
Gums opines...
I never could understand why complete strangers tried so hard to kill me.....had they got to know me....it would have made far more sense.
We had relatively strict ROE's for the time....and each morning we briefed the Crew from a Yellow Card that had the Rules printed upon it....much like Cops and the Miranda warning cards required to be read to those they arrest e these days.
We had a terrible tragedy at a place called My Lai....US troops murdering almost 400 villagers.
A fellow Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot and his enlisted Door Gunner stopped some of the troops from killing yet more villagers by turning the door gun on the troops and telling them they would shoot.
The Warrant Officer then filed a Report on the murders which kicked off the initial investigation, by a Captain who later became the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs named Colin Powell, which attempted to cover up the murders.
To put My Lai Into perspective....during the Tet 1968 attack on Hue....the NVA and VC murdered over 3,000 South Vietnames....Doctors, Lawyers, Politcians, Teachers, their families including Children.
As we are saying.....war and morality are not linear concepts.
We had relatively strict ROE's for the time....and each morning we briefed the Crew from a Yellow Card that had the Rules printed upon it....much like Cops and the Miranda warning cards required to be read to those they arrest e these days.
We had a terrible tragedy at a place called My Lai....US troops murdering almost 400 villagers.
A fellow Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot and his enlisted Door Gunner stopped some of the troops from killing yet more villagers by turning the door gun on the troops and telling them they would shoot.
The Warrant Officer then filed a Report on the murders which kicked off the initial investigation, by a Captain who later became the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs named Colin Powell, which attempted to cover up the murders.
To put My Lai Into perspective....during the Tet 1968 attack on Hue....the NVA and VC murdered over 3,000 South Vietnames....Doctors, Lawyers, Politcians, Teachers, their families including Children.
As we are saying.....war and morality are not linear concepts.
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“I think you should avoid lecturing someone like SASless on the ethics of warfare until you’ve actually ‘got some time in’ yourself.”
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
The great diversionary tactic, you haven't done it so you are not entitled to an opinion about it.
Fortunately the world doesn't actually operate according to this absurd dictum.
I never said that BVRAAM wasn’t entitled to his opinion. What I said was BVRAAM wasn’t entitled to lecture SASless about his.
Please learn to read, and understand, before commenting.
Last edited by Homelover; 14th Dec 2019 at 09:31.
"Libya was by far the fastest growing economy in Africa"
I really don't think so - it was disfunctional lunatic asylum where no-one worked at all and the money was made by shipping oil and trousering the cash
I really don't think so - it was disfunctional lunatic asylum where no-one worked at all and the money was made by shipping oil and trousering the cash
Having spent a distressing proportion of the years since 9/11 looking down from my aircraft onto western troops engaged in a variety of ‘nation building’ projects, and occasionally unleashing a bit of ‘deconstruction’ to try to get them out of trouble, I have come to the following views:
1) Military forces whose top two priorities are elimination of own losses and avoidance of civilian casualties are so compromised in their ability to achieve goals that their presence probably does more harm than good;
2) Troops with ‘skin in the game’ beyond getting home (usually locals) are orders of magnitude more effective than their equipment and training would suggest. They are fighting for their own futures and families, they have a time horizon beyond their six-month tour, and therefore they have a different basis on which to judge risk and ethics.
3) Providing just enough outside assistance to keep the ‘good guys’ in the battle, but not enough to help them win the war, starts out looking like a measured and ethical choice but eventually ends up with the outsider sharing moral responsibility with the ‘bad guys’ for all of the additional suffering inflicted on innocent civilians by perpetual conflict.
There is very often no ‘correct’ answer to an ethical problem, and the best (or least worst) answer is different for people of different cultural heritage. And I would observe that the law of armed conflict has an ethical foundation which is foreign to a large proportion of the world’s population. Anyone who sees these things in black and white needs to learn a bit of grey-shade perception.
1) Military forces whose top two priorities are elimination of own losses and avoidance of civilian casualties are so compromised in their ability to achieve goals that their presence probably does more harm than good;
2) Troops with ‘skin in the game’ beyond getting home (usually locals) are orders of magnitude more effective than their equipment and training would suggest. They are fighting for their own futures and families, they have a time horizon beyond their six-month tour, and therefore they have a different basis on which to judge risk and ethics.
3) Providing just enough outside assistance to keep the ‘good guys’ in the battle, but not enough to help them win the war, starts out looking like a measured and ethical choice but eventually ends up with the outsider sharing moral responsibility with the ‘bad guys’ for all of the additional suffering inflicted on innocent civilians by perpetual conflict.
There is very often no ‘correct’ answer to an ethical problem, and the best (or least worst) answer is different for people of different cultural heritage. And I would observe that the law of armed conflict has an ethical foundation which is foreign to a large proportion of the world’s population. Anyone who sees these things in black and white needs to learn a bit of grey-shade perception.
Last edited by Easy Street; 14th Dec 2019 at 10:51.
There is no truth in War.
I firmly believe there are no Winners when it gets down to the folks doing the fighting, killing, and dying.....just survivors.
Until we return to the ancient way of war fighting....killing every one of the other side you encounter and destroying everything of theirs you encounter.....with no quarter given.....we shall keep on losing lives and spending treasure to no good end.
I firmly believe there are no Winners when it gets down to the folks doing the fighting, killing, and dying.....just survivors.
Until we return to the ancient way of war fighting....killing every one of the other side you encounter and destroying everything of theirs you encounter.....with no quarter given.....we shall keep on losing lives and spending treasure to no good end.
Course you realise that means open season on US citizens everywhere, not like the old days where the "Ethernopians" all lived there, they now live everywhere including the US. Now they see all their culture and people being obliterated because everything is okayed by DC.
Would you expect people NOT to bring the war to the US ? everywhere ? Personally I would expect it and the small (and it is small) US military casualties get dwarfed by attacks at home on everywhere.
I had assummed that the World had removed many people advocating this viewpoint and mindset in 1945.
The only thing you left out was a staff of lawyers to prosecute our own troops for violating overly restrictive rules of engagement that get our folks killed for no good reason.
That is what your way of thinking has gotten us and one defeat after another in wars that never end.
That is what your way of thinking has gotten us and one defeat after another in wars that never end.
Just to the nearest hundred will do.
In that time how many people have been killed in these conflicts, basically so we have a rough dead to jailed people idea.
How would you react to a foreign country invading the US and doing the same ?
We had a terrible tragedy at a place called My Lai....US troops murdering almost 400 villagers.
A fellow Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot and his enlisted Door Gunner stopped some of the troops from killing yet more villagers by turning the door gun on the troops and telling them they would shoot.
The Warrant Officer then filed a Report on the murders which kicked off the initial investigation, by a Captain who later became the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs named Colin Powell, which attempted to cover up the murders.
To put My Lai Into perspective....during the Tet 1968 attack on Hue....the NVA and VC murdered over 3,000 South Vietnames....Doctors, Lawyers, Politcians, Teachers, their families including Children.
As we are saying.....war and morality are not linear concepts.
A fellow Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot and his enlisted Door Gunner stopped some of the troops from killing yet more villagers by turning the door gun on the troops and telling them they would shoot.
The Warrant Officer then filed a Report on the murders which kicked off the initial investigation, by a Captain who later became the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs named Colin Powell, which attempted to cover up the murders.
To put My Lai Into perspective....during the Tet 1968 attack on Hue....the NVA and VC murdered over 3,000 South Vietnames....Doctors, Lawyers, Politcians, Teachers, their families including Children.
As we are saying.....war and morality are not linear concepts.
How many people went to jail for My Lai ?
Easy Street sums it up in a few short sentences of the fallacies under which we have forced our Troops to operate.
As he knows from firsthand experience.....his is a very qualified insight into the issues we confront.
How do we achieve the goals of destroying the enemy's ability and will to fight using current tactics, weapons, and forces using current policies, rules, and regulations?
Racedo,
My response to you remains the same as in the past....please speak for yourself and do not attempt to speak for me....I am quite capable of doing that on my own.
I seem to recall we have no monopoly on prosecuting our own.
One thing that is different between the UK and the USA is we do it immediately and not wait decades to dredge up excuses to prosecute folks.
The UK has a long history of doing exactly what you attempt to accuse my side of doing so first point the finger at your side.
There are many museums in London that celebrate gallant battles lost in your history.
I guess that is part of the reason why it used to be the British Empire and now is just the UK.
As he knows from firsthand experience.....his is a very qualified insight into the issues we confront.
How do we achieve the goals of destroying the enemy's ability and will to fight using current tactics, weapons, and forces using current policies, rules, and regulations?
Racedo,
My response to you remains the same as in the past....please speak for yourself and do not attempt to speak for me....I am quite capable of doing that on my own.
I seem to recall we have no monopoly on prosecuting our own.
One thing that is different between the UK and the USA is we do it immediately and not wait decades to dredge up excuses to prosecute folks.
The UK has a long history of doing exactly what you attempt to accuse my side of doing so first point the finger at your side.
There are many museums in London that celebrate gallant battles lost in your history.
I guess that is part of the reason why it used to be the British Empire and now is just the UK.
Racedo,
My response to you remains the same....please speak for yourself and do not speak for me....I am quite capable for doing that on my own.
I seem to recall we have no monopoly on prosecuting our own.
One thing that is different between the UK and the USA is we do it immediately and not wait decades to dredge up excuses to prosecute folks.
The UK has a long history of doing exactly what you attempt to accuse my side of doing so first point the finger at your side.
There are many museums in London that celebrate gallant battles lost in your history.
I guess that is part of the reason why it used to be the British Empire and now is down to the UK.
My response to you remains the same....please speak for yourself and do not speak for me....I am quite capable for doing that on my own.
I seem to recall we have no monopoly on prosecuting our own.
One thing that is different between the UK and the USA is we do it immediately and not wait decades to dredge up excuses to prosecute folks.
The UK has a long history of doing exactly what you attempt to accuse my side of doing so first point the finger at your side.
There are many museums in London that celebrate gallant battles lost in your history.
I guess that is part of the reason why it used to be the British Empire and now is down to the UK.
UK and US rarely if ever prosecute their own military for what they do and yes I believe both have been involved in what constitutes war crimes that get covered up.
I have not tried to justify anything, you seek war with zero quarter given to anybody.
I firmly believe that....to the bottom of my heart.
I participated in a war where we never invaded the enemy homeland and destroyed the enemy forces and their ability to maintain their combat forces.
Our Air Force could not destroy their airfields and support units and had to wait until the Migs engaged our aircraft before they could do battle with them.
Our Air Force was denied the ability to destroy enemy SAM sites and had to suffer serious losses as a result.
We had Rules of Engagement that undercut our ability to seek out and destroy the enemy supply system and allowed them to operate in Cambodia and Laos safe from ground attack and as they were could only be attacked by air.
If I got shot at....I had to call for permission to return fire unless my aircraft and crew were in imminent loss due to the ground fire.
We took control of enemy territory then turned around and gave it back to them as our Leadership had decided to engage in a War of Attrition....where killing the enemy was the measure of success in violation of everything we had learned from previous wars.
That is NOT the way to wage War.
It only guarantees a long drawn out conflict with maximum casualties on both sides with no hope of a certain victory.
When they finally turned us loose to do what the US Army does best.....we cleaned out the part of Cambodia we were allowed to enter.
That provided a period of time where the NVA were unable to operate inside that part of South Vietnam.
The NVA had to operate exactly opposite of the usual way of supplying forces....they had to establish their logistical base ahead of operations.
We destroyed that ability while we were in Cambodia....until we had to withdraw due to political resistance by our own Congress.
One Third of my Flight School Class died in that War.....I know of what I speak.
I participated in a war where we never invaded the enemy homeland and destroyed the enemy forces and their ability to maintain their combat forces.
Our Air Force could not destroy their airfields and support units and had to wait until the Migs engaged our aircraft before they could do battle with them.
Our Air Force was denied the ability to destroy enemy SAM sites and had to suffer serious losses as a result.
We had Rules of Engagement that undercut our ability to seek out and destroy the enemy supply system and allowed them to operate in Cambodia and Laos safe from ground attack and as they were could only be attacked by air.
If I got shot at....I had to call for permission to return fire unless my aircraft and crew were in imminent loss due to the ground fire.
We took control of enemy territory then turned around and gave it back to them as our Leadership had decided to engage in a War of Attrition....where killing the enemy was the measure of success in violation of everything we had learned from previous wars.
That is NOT the way to wage War.
It only guarantees a long drawn out conflict with maximum casualties on both sides with no hope of a certain victory.
When they finally turned us loose to do what the US Army does best.....we cleaned out the part of Cambodia we were allowed to enter.
That provided a period of time where the NVA were unable to operate inside that part of South Vietnam.
The NVA had to operate exactly opposite of the usual way of supplying forces....they had to establish their logistical base ahead of operations.
We destroyed that ability while we were in Cambodia....until we had to withdraw due to political resistance by our own Congress.
One Third of my Flight School Class died in that War.....I know of what I speak.
I think you and SASless are talking past each other somewhat. You see Western intervention as imperialism. He sees it as difficult or impossible for the West to do any good within the operational, legal and ethical boundaries it imposes on itself. The logical end point of both of your arguments is that the West should stay out of foreign conflicts which pose no genuine, direct and immediate threat to national security. Am I right?
A great irony of the wider dilemma is that many of those who are most vociferous about the evil wrought by Western adventurism are just as keen to push Western ethical standards on foreigners and intervene when they refuse to accede. I don’t accuse you of that, but unfortunately it is a commonly-held stance in certain sections of the political establishment.
A great irony of the wider dilemma is that many of those who are most vociferous about the evil wrought by Western adventurism are just as keen to push Western ethical standards on foreigners and intervene when they refuse to accede. I don’t accuse you of that, but unfortunately it is a commonly-held stance in certain sections of the political establishment.
Last edited by Easy Street; 14th Dec 2019 at 12:47.
The logical end point of both of your arguments is that the West should stay out of foreign conflicts which pose no genuine, direct and immediate threat to national security. Am I right?
If we are going to wage War....it has to be for reasons that both allow for and demand the application of the maximum amount of over whelming force required to defeat the enemy ability and will to fight.
There is never any reason to "Half Step" it when it comes to a War.
Emphasis is on the word "War"...not Police Action, Conflict, Incursion, Overseas Contingency Operation, Nation Building.