Formating Phenoms
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Formating Phenoms
Saw a pair recovering to Cranwell yesterday - looked quite good. I thought the echelon looked a little less swept than other types but I guess that’s a function of whatever visual references they’re using.
Any insights into how it’s settling down as a ME trainer?
Any insights into how it’s settling down as a ME trainer?
fourmating phenoms
...
Been tried before - twomating phenoms - Phenom
Still waiting for the SI.
Shouldn't they be on instrument's when they're that close ?
LFH
...
Been tried before - twomating phenoms - Phenom
Still waiting for the SI.
whatever visual references they’re using.
LFH
...
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Still it’s better to be teaching formation to students on a (relatively) cheap training type rather than letting them have their first go on a frontline ME ac - a £160m A400M behind a £300m Voyager for example.
Now we we just have to persuade L3 to include a formation phase....
Now we we just have to persuade L3 to include a formation phase....
Avoid imitations
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Still it’s better to be teaching formation to students on a (relatively) cheap training type rather than letting them have their first go on a frontline ME ac - a £160m A400M behind a £300m Voyager for example.
Now we we just have to persuade L3 to include a formation phase....
Now we we just have to persuade L3 to include a formation phase....
As for type specific AAR, I would have thought a high fidelity sim would be the best platform to practice this on. Not sure what formating a biz jet, mindful that experienced pilots have already written one off, brings to the party.
When were speed brakes a pre-requisite for formation?
Not sure how the negative torque system worked on a king air, but on a Herc there was no airborne brake effect from the props....and on the K a flight engineer to nudge the power levers forward if you tried!
Back in the days of ‘proper’ flying training, everyone did quite a bit of formation at BFTS pre-streaming and there was none at METS. Once you got to a front line type, if you needed to tank, the basic muscle memory soon came back, but you still had to learn type specific techniques, such as using rudder rather than aileron for positioning in the Herc.
Not sure how the negative torque system worked on a king air, but on a Herc there was no airborne brake effect from the props....and on the K a flight engineer to nudge the power levers forward if you tried!
Back in the days of ‘proper’ flying training, everyone did quite a bit of formation at BFTS pre-streaming and there was none at METS. Once you got to a front line type, if you needed to tank, the basic muscle memory soon came back, but you still had to learn type specific techniques, such as using rudder rather than aileron for positioning in the Herc.
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When were speed brakes a pre-requisite for formation?
Not sure how the negative torque system worked on a king air, but on a Herc there was no airborne brake effect from the props....and on the K a flight engineer to nudge the power levers forward if you tried!
Back in the days of ‘proper’ flying training, everyone did quite a bit of formation at BFTS pre-streaming and there was none at METS. Once you got to a front line type, if you needed to tank, the basic muscle memory soon came back, but you still had to learn type specific techniques, such as using rudder rather than aileron for positioning in the Herc.
Not sure how the negative torque system worked on a king air, but on a Herc there was no airborne brake effect from the props....and on the K a flight engineer to nudge the power levers forward if you tried!
Back in the days of ‘proper’ flying training, everyone did quite a bit of formation at BFTS pre-streaming and there was none at METS. Once you got to a front line type, if you needed to tank, the basic muscle memory soon came back, but you still had to learn type specific techniques, such as using rudder rather than aileron for positioning in the Herc.
Modelling of inertia, control force and control response (including throttle) would need to be absolutely perfect throughout the flight envelope for formation to be ‘trainable’ in the sim. The later generation of Tornado GR sim offered formation flying and it was OK for procedural aspects, and to an extent for tactical formations, but it was completely hopeless for close manoeuvring despite the flight model being fairly good in all other circumstances. In fact it was so bad that it would have been negative training to do it in the sim before doing it live, so we didn’t. I’d be interested to know whether the same applies to Typhoon and F35 sims as it seems unlikely that things would be any better in ‘heavy’ sims.
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Modelling of inertia, control force and control response (including throttle) would need to be absolutely perfect throughout the flight envelope for formation to be ‘trainable’ in the sim. The later generation of Tornado GR sim offered formation flying and it was OK for procedural aspects, and to an extent for tactical formations, but it was completely hopeless for close manoeuvring despite the flight model being fairly good in all other circumstances. In fact it was so bad that it would have been negative training to do it in the sim before doing it live, so we didn’t. I’d be interested to know whether the same applies to Typhoon and F35 sims as it seems unlikely that things would be any better in ‘heavy’ sims.
Bearing in mind there are no twin stick F35, how are crews planning to train for AAR if not synthetically?
Last edited by VinRouge; 24th Nov 2019 at 15:21.
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Bearing in mind there are no twin stick F35, how are crews planning to train for AAR if not synthetically?
Bearing in mind there are no twin stick F35, how are crews planning to train for AAR if not synthetically?
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Or did they sign themselves off after reading the book and just cracking on in the airplane? The difference of course is that fast pointy mates will have done earlier formation training at BFT and AFT. Is this an issue for multi pilot types? I argue absolutely not. Synthetics are of ample quality to develop the required muscle memory required particularly for large aircraft. There is a big difference anyhow in flying a bit of line astern in a king air and plugging in for 20-30 mins in something much larger.
. I take you are saying they didn’t do a minute of synthetic training in preparation? Practice breakout manoeuvres and emergency procedures, requiring specific aircraft handling? Train visual references for pre contact and contact position?
Or did they sign themselves off after reading the book and just cracking on in the airplane?
Or did they sign themselves off after reading the book and just cracking on in the airplane?
Fighter pilot
Last edited by beardy; 24th Nov 2019 at 18:58.
