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Airliner intercept for training?

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Airliner intercept for training?

Old 30th Oct 2019, 20:27
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Airliner intercept for training?

Is it legal to intercept an airliner just for practice?

Ryanair B738 over Austria on Oct 25th 2019, aircraft intercepted by fighter aircraft
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 21:00
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Yes Please!!

In the days of DanAir criscrossing the North Sea it was not unusual to be asked by civilian ATC whether we would be happy to be intercepted for practice by the RAF which existed then.

Rarely refused, many captains were ex-military anyway and didn’t have the hangups harboured by the civilian-trained aircrew.

A quick PA telling the pax what they might see was the wise thing to do to avoid startling them.

It was reassuring to remind the interceptors to “Check switches safe” just in case.

But that was in the days before ‘elfin safety and diversity training ruined the Western World and I doubt the desk-flyers of modern management would tolerate such co-operation.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 21:33
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
Your profile says you're a commander - I guess you'd know what the rules are and whether any are going to be broken.

But I would point out that the AVH page does not suggest that the mil training will involve GAT.

As BARKINGMAD says, it's been done in the past. As a controller many years ago I sometimes got involved with asking an aircraft I was controlling if it would mind allowing the mill to try to find it on behalf of some mil training facility. Most said yes. But that was a long time before many passengers were so aware (or cared) about what happened through their windows. These days I suspect if the flightdeck made a PA to say that a mil aircraft or two would formate with them for training most passengers wouldn't believe them.
I'm not ashamed to say "I don't know the current rules, in Austria, the US, worldwide".
That's why I'm asking those who know better than I do.

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Old 30th Oct 2019, 21:35
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Post 9/11 I would hope the pax would be grateful even if they knew they were on the receiving end of the ‘pickle’ button?
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 21:39
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Sadly, these days, likely pax response would be 'can we claim compensation for the stress' while searching for 'no win, no fee' lawyer types
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 22:42
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In the "good old days" most passengers were pleased to see a military aircraft close up. "Better than an air display". It also of course showcased the RAF. I guess, sadly, the old days are gone.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 00:06
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Originally Posted by BARKINGMAD View Post

It was reassuring to remind the interceptors to “Check switches safe” just in case.

Because would could possibly go wrong ? Inadvertent weapons release by a QRA interceptor is not a possibility ?

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 02:43
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Because would could possibly go wrong ? Inadvertent weapons release by a QRA interceptor is not a possibility ?
Vaguely remember an Italian DC-9 getting shot down over the Adriatic, never fully resolved afaik.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 03:53
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You can google inadvertent shoot-downs or weapons release due human factors and switchology mistakes for interesting reading on the relatively commonplace nature of such events.

Kind of sobering. This year google reports a NATO QRA fighter fired an AMRAAM by mistake or even moving to the brave new world of AI and networked systems the Indians shot down one of their own helicopters this month.

Running intercepts on airliners with QRA aircraft and war rounds is inviting Murphy's Law. Using airliners for SAM training probably not so wise as well.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 06:26
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I was asked last year out of Brisabne, Australia if it was ok for a military aircraft out of Amberley to practice an few intercepts.

At night, so the passengers would not have known or saw them.

I was in B737.

Officer was happy, so we said sure.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 07:00
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DC 9

Was an attempt to shoot down Ghadaffi in his DC9 that went wrong. They correctly got one of his fighter escorts but wrong DC 9.
in spite of a 30 year cover up an Italian court awarded damages to the families against the Italian navy iirc.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:06
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Dave

I flew DC9s at the time for the Swiss over that route. The airline was run by predominately military pilots with very close links to Nato fighter colleagues and our security department shortly afterwards condoned our continued flying over the region knowing what actually happened having assessed the risk.
International press had at one time stated that Ghadaffi had been involved as wreckage from a Libyan Mig was discovered in Italy.
I had a french mate who had flown off a yank carrier in the Med who knew the inside story, he sadly died flying his motorglider in the Alps a few years ago. It was only at his funeral that I discovered his relatively senior rank.
Re conspiracy theories watch bbc i player https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c47 you will note that the collusion of the secret services in the last two programs and the lack mentioning the bombing campaign against BEA. One aircraft diverted to Manchester with a bomb under a pax seat cushion. There was a file on it which I tried to get release on around 2014 but was frozen for 40 years. After the freezing period expired I recontacted the department that held it who eventually replied that it didnt exist. There was a reference to it in the national archive at Kew.

Last edited by blind pew; 31st Oct 2019 at 09:30. Reason: Added BBC program and reference to BEA
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:26
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The article says the Austrians will be carrying out "intercept training". No mention of intercepting airliners.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:55
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Was on a repatriation flight few years ago. Swiss requested an intercept. Had a couple of fighters on my wings fir a few minutes. Was heartily thanked after the event. Got a few pics of the pilots close up. Had officers and "guests" in the back. Never heard any comments from them, so probably never saw the jets.

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 10:19
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Back in the 1980s & 1990s it was common over Europe. Many times Maastrich control would ask if we minded their F4s playing around us. Good to watch IMHO.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 10:31
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Originally Posted by Herod View Post
The article says the Austrians will be carrying out "intercept training". No mention of intercepting airliners.
Except the Ryanair flight that was intercepted, as confirmed by the Austrians.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 11:12
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Back in my day, one could put "RMK/EMBELLISH" in field 18 to say don't mind being intercepted. Is that still in use?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 11:24
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I was intercepted without warning by a Lightening flying out of Binbrook years ago in an F27. It scared the sh!t out of us when the F/O’s side window was suddenly filled with the gleaming silver monster. It turned out to be flown by the Station Commander on an early morning MET sortie. Not impressed, but wish I had a picture.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 11:24
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Originally Posted by Servo View Post
I was asked last year out of Brisabne, Australia if it was ok for a military aircraft out of Amberley to practice an few intercepts.

At night, so the passengers would not have known or saw them.

I was in B737.

Officer was happy, so we said sure.
No way in this world would I allow my passengers or my crew to be exposed to this! If they get it wrong, your dead. They get to eject!

They have their own training resources for this. No need to put the public at risk.

I vaguely recall a Qantas incident in Japan many years ago where a US Fighter Jet snuck up on them and set off theIr TCAS!
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 11:54
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
Was an attempt to shoot down Ghadaffi in his DC9 that went wrong. They correctly got one of his fighter escorts but wrong DC 9.
in spite of a 30 year cover up an Italian court awarded damages to the families against the Italian navy iirc.
Who made such attempt?
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