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Lossiemouth Upgrades

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Lossiemouth Upgrades

Old 24th Nov 2019, 23:33
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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The wee "nippy sweetie" flexes her muscles yet again, saying that "Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government", vide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50536460

Not asking much really, especially relative to a minority government.....

Jack
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 09:10
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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"Could the nuclear sub fleet not move to somewhere like Barrow, after all they are built there"

They could Nut but I think there are issues about water depth - plus it is a fair ways to deep water which the submariners like - an extended cruise on the /near the surface is to be avoided I believe.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 09:44
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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It’s not so much where to berth the subs that’s the problem but where to store / handle the warheads. The Coulport facility, when it was being built, was described as the biggest civil engineering project in Europe.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 10:15
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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In order for the any discussion about where to put boomers n bangers to enter the world of reality the following has to happen:

1. Labour and SNP have to win a combined parliamentary majority. According to John Curtice (this weekend multiple sources) the chances of that happening are close to zero.
2. Or, Sturgeon would have to persuade Johnson to give her IndyRef2 (I hope nobody hereabouts is holding their breath on that one).
3. And, in the very unlikely event that IndyRef2 somehow comes about, the SNP have to win it. The latest poll (WhatScotlandWants, 22 Nov) has the Yes at 45% and the No at 47%. Ain't no way a politician as savvy as NS is staking her political career on those odds.

And even if all these unlikely events line up, there will be years of negotiation ahead, and NS is hardly going to show her aces on day 1 is she?

Anybody want to talk about P8's now?
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 12:04
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
Itís not so much where to berth the subs submarines thatís the problem but where to store / handle the warheads. The Coulport facility, when it was being built, was described as the biggest civil engineering project in Europe.
I appreciate that it's not recent, but the attached link provides useful background, largely still relevant today, regarding possible alternatives to Faslane/Coulport, and even including a French connection: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977

Meanwhile, back at Lossiemouth.....

Jack
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 12:58
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
A ton of cash and effort has gone into making Lossie a key asset to the RAF, with presumably, the assumption that the Kingdom remains united.
This has quite naturally opened the debate of 'what if' and this is not a dig at Scotland, or the people of Scotland.

I am genuinely puzzled as to what 'Independence' actually means to the SNP, because if it is to mean a defined Scotland totally, completely and exclusively independent of the rest of the UK then how long would that take to establish?
Everything currently 'National' will have to be started up, from scratch from NHS, RNLI to National Tyres (well, you catch my drift).
The RNLI is an independent charity, not a government department, and operates lifeboats throughout the British Isles including the Republic of Ireland.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 13:44
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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very interesting article Union Jack - suspect there's some poor sods who have been working away on this for years just in case.........
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 13:46
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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"The RNLI is an independent charity, not a government department"

Quite amazing when you think of it - a charity providing front-line (and superb) cover. Must save the Govt millions.................

Maybe they should run the RAF that way?
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 13:52
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alan Baker View Post
The RNLI is an independent charity, not a government department, and operates lifeboats throughout the British Isles including the Republic of Ireland.
VMT for the elaboration on the penultimate paragraph of #89!

Jack
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 14:18
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for the clarification re the status of the RNLI, I am aware of it's 'charitable' status ... and its many faults.
I had not intended to imply that it was a Government asset.
I had hoped to draw attention to the word 'National' in the organisations which currently serve all of the UK.
And 'national', when/if Scotland declared UDI and would still need to have the services of those 'National' organisations.
Cheers
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 14:21
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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SSBN Relocation

Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
Itís not so much where to berth the subs thatís the problem but where to store / handle the warheads. The Coulport facility, when it was being built, was described as the biggest civil engineering project in Europe.
Once a suitable berth has been located, and agreed upon (which in reality means the Southwest Peninsular of England).

The size of a storage /handling facility could be addressed. This need not be of the size and cost of the Coulport Facility.
Fewer smaller warheads are now in use and storage may be shared with the production facility.
We may not require all of the 65 missiles we used to lease from US stocks for the next boat.
Missile storage needs to be secure but does that require the deep-hardening first-strike survival measures of the Cold War?

The new facilities could be safe clean and efficient with perhaps a third aspect Ė decommissioning of the subs we have in Ďstorageí.

Naturally the Government will draft a flawed contract which will overrun both time and cost, leading to cuts and compromises. One can hope for a better outcome.

As for the cost of re-building Lossie, it may all be in vain after all if the fleet of P-8ís move to St Mawgan to be nearer the subs.

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Old 25th Nov 2019, 15:06
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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It will be common sense for the bases to remain in Scotland they employ large numbers of people and are in the right position. Moving
aircraft to England would be stupid.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 15:27
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shotleylad View Post
It will be common sense for the bases to remain in Scotland they employ large numbers of people and are in the right position. Moving
aircraft to England would be stupid.

Regretfully common sense was left behind 40 years ago on this topic.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 15:29
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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"Fewer smaller warheads are now in use and storage may be shared with the production facility."

That's Burghfield just outside Reading - you're going to have to widen the Kennet & Avon Canal a bit...
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 15:32
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Shotley Lad,
Being sensible is not, and never has been, government policy......
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 16:22
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Well TBH the whole issue is due to the Scots trying to emulate the Quebecois back in the early 1970's.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 18:34
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
Okay this has drifted a wee bit but ...

That was a rather selective answer to a puzzling question ... and you'll need more than a few coastwatchers.
A quick peek at what the UK Govt currently have to operate comes up with a few more (uncosted) agencies you may well need to maintain the standard we all currently have.

Cabinet Office 22 agencies and public bodies
Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy 41 agencies and public bodies
Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport 45 agencies and public bodies
Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs 33 agencies and public bodies
Department for Transport 24 agencies and public bodies
Department for Work & Pensions 15 agencies and public bodies
Foreign & Commonwealth Office 10 agencies and public bodies
Home Office 29 agencies and public bodies
Ministry of Defence 27 agencies and public bodies

There actually hundreds more organisations which are currently national (which includes all of the UK) which an Indi Scotland may well need.
Which would take years and would cost more than the 'voters' would be happy with.
I am genuinely puzzled as to what it is you feel the need to be independent from and what it is you think you will be gaining.
Independence from oppression I can understand - is it independence out of a fit of pique?

I have lived on the border and on both sides of it - half my family are Scots the other are not.
I see no point whatsoever in turning back the clock and tearing down the union for the dubious joy of saying 'Get it right up yi' and watching another re-run of Braveheart'.

I know what you have to lose on day one after 'freedom' - I do not know what you think you will gain.
I think you'll find, with one obvious exception, that the Scottish Government and Executive in Edinburgh operates most of these functions in one form or another already. Bear in mind, as a country one tenth the size of England our requirements would be proportionately less. The one obvious exception is the MoD. And that, I guess, is the subject of the posts on here now. For the sake of completeness, taxation and social security are also reserved matters so Work and Pensions would need to be addressed.

Anyway, some homework for you. Write down the values of the Norwegian Sovereign Oil Fund and the UK's Sovereign Oil Fund. Show your working, but don't spend too much time on the UK's, as (big clue), it's zero, despite call me Dave Cameron's promise that one would be set up if Scotland voted to remain part of the UK in 2014. Successive UK governments, starting with Thatcher's in 1979, have pissed trillions of pounds revenue from the north sea up the wall, and that's a crime.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 18:38
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
Itís not so much where to berth the subs thatís the problem but where to store / handle the warheads. The Coulport facility, when it was being built, was described as the biggest civil engineering project in Europe.
I think it was the Ship Lift facility at Faslane that was described as the biggest at the time. Built, of course, by Maggie Thatcher's favourite civil engineering contractor, Trafalgar House.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 18:44
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Shame we don't build our airfields like the Russians, when on leaving East Germany they lifted a lot of the taxiways etc and took them with them.
Could the nuclear sub fleet not move to somewhere like Barrow, after all they are built there. and there is a handy airfield nearby.

As for the oil revenues that our Scottish friends on here keep mentioning, do not forget it is a dwindling asset that is on the decline, once that's gone you may find that difficult to replace that in the countries coffers, there is also the decommissioning costs to think about and I seem to remember that Shetland at the last referendum wished to remain as part of the U.K.? Which would if it came to pass severely reduce the oil fields at Scotland's disposal.

i am all for letting Scotland go its own way if it wants, BUT I doubt it will ever become part of the EU again, Spain is the major blocking point, if they agree to a split and Scotland rejoining, it will bring about futher calls at home on it over Catalan.

The other problem is Sturgeon, she has already said she is not against holding another referendum in a few years if after leaving the people of Scotland decide it's not working and wish to rejoin the Union, no EU will ever want to go through that again, and one hopes the remains of the U.K. Would vote / prevent it happening.




A question that's always puzzled me. There's no doubt the oil and gas is a dwindling asset (though it'll outlive everyone on here right now). As such, if Scotland does not become independent, what provision is the UK government currently making for the loss of it and the decommissioning costs?

"Spain is the major blocking point" - fake news and part of 2014's project fear. It's not an issue. Google it.

As for your last sentence, could you quote a reference please. I have NEVER heard rejoining the UK as an option if we become independent.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 18:49
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shotleylad View Post
It will be common sense for the bases to remain in Scotland they employ large numbers of people and are in the right position. Moving
aircraft to England would be stupid.
Excellent contribution. The problem with sense these days is that it's not that common.
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